LIST ALL THE BAD SIDE EFFECTS FOR USING BIO DIESEL

[SteveBaz]

I have a very good friend that is an expert mechanic and has his own auto store and repair center. This is a technical guy that has all the knowledge and is not afraid to say it the way it is and when having a extensive conversation regarding BIO FUELS including both diesel and gas he made the entire group stop for a moment when considering the down sides to using the alternative fuels in engines and vehicles it was not designed to run in.

Other than me not being a mechanic and not qualified to repair the problems bio diesel and bio methanol can create in any vehicle including my PSD that the fuels are not designed for what are you guys seeing as a result of using non standardized fuel.

Filter problems, line melting issues, drying out o-rings and gaskets, line residues, tank buildups of gunk, injector o rings and the plastic parts in injectors failing, fuel pump failures and anything associated with fuels running through them from a none standard fuel???

Please list any and all issues you may think or know is being effected by fuel alternatives and if there is a fix for it??

Thanks

BAZ...

[VD350]

Filter problems, line melting issues, drying out o-rings and gaskets, line residues, tank buildups of gunk, injector o rings and the plastic parts in injectors failing, fuel pump failures and anything associated with fuels running through them from a none standard fuel

Gunk is cleaned out with bio, thus causing your first filter change or 2 to be quick. Line melting is only on the older diesels which use rubber line. Drying out of o-rings and gaskets I have never heard of being affected by bio (that was the problem with ULSD on older diesels). The only fuel pump failures I have heard of is when using WVO and trying to get the engine to pump it cold. And Bio when bought at the pump is a standardized fuel http://www.biodiesel.org/

and could you explain what bio methanol is and why you would use it in your PSD?

[duallyduty]

My SOTP dynometer tells me that a B20 blend feels the same in my 120 and 140 setting back when I had hybrid 530s vs running #2.

[hheynow]

OK I'm not a mechanic either but have a few years of using biodiesel from B100 on down to B5 in my OBS. All of it has been commercial ASTM grade quality. I also have 19 months of running WVO, but that's another topic.

Filter clogging after a few tankfuls until you remove the mineralized residue from your tank and fuel lines. Keep a spare and when power drops change it.

Upgrade the two return lines (FPR to each head) with bioD compatible fuel injection hose. If you remove the fuel bowl you might as well replace the four hoses underneath plus the drain hose.

Drying out o-rings and gaskets? Nope

Line residue? No, B100 is a strong solvent and will clean your fuel system.

Tank buildups of gunk? Nope, cleaner than my wildest dreams after a year!

Injector o-rings and the plastic parts in injectors failing? Nope

Fuel pump failures? Steve, there are so many recent threads here about fuel pump failures since the introduction of ULSD. IMO using >B5 will help our fuel pumps last longer.

And anything associated with fuels running through them from a none standard fuel??? Yes...viscosity issues, winter gelling and 7% less power than #2. When I run B99 during cold weather I notice the acceleration way down. Here on the west coast B20 will not gel in our winters and feels like #2 in power. My truck loves the sweet spot of B50. Still plenty of power with a much quieter engine. But during the heat of summer it's B99 24/7.

I would fear homebrew biodiesel that has not been properly washed and dried. The thought of residual methanol or lye in my fuel is enough to make me cringe.

[Spencnaz]

The biggest problem I've had with biodiesel is poor cold weather performance.

I can't run a concentration higher than B50 during the winter due to biodiesel gelling up.

Other than that issue, I've had no problems running my own homebrew.

[Member33094]

Warrenty would be the biggest for me, since most MFG's do not like to see more than a splash aka B5

[Ragdude]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SteveBaz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... down sides to using the alternative fuels in engines and vehicles it was not designed to run in.

</div></div>
Maybe your friend isn't aware that the diesel engine was not designed to run on dino fuel. So actually, bio-fuel is the correct fuel to use.

[Halitosis]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ragdude</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SteveBaz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... down sides to using the alternative fuels in engines and vehicles it was not designed to run in.

</div></div>
Maybe your friend isn't aware that the diesel engine was not designed to run on dino fuel. So actually, bio-fuel is the correct fuel to use. </div></div>

I wouldn't go quite THAT far. While it may be true that the ORIGINAL diesel engine was designed to run on peanut oil, that's not the same as saying that it's "more correct" to use bio-fuel in a MODERN diesel engine.

Halitosis

[Fluxcore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Halitosis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ragdude</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SteveBaz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... down sides to using the alternative fuels in engines and vehicles it was not designed to run in.

</div></div>
Maybe your friend isn't aware that the diesel engine was not designed to run on dino fuel. So actually, bio-fuel is the correct fuel to use. </div></div>

I wouldn't go quite THAT far. While it may be true that the ORIGINAL diesel engine was designed to run on peanut oil, that's not the same as saying that it's "more correct" to use bio-fuel in a MODERN diesel engine.

Halitosis </div></div>



Well, now were splitting fine hairs.

It's like asking whether our birth was as important as our puberty. In the second, we become men, but it would also be impossible without the first event.

Since pump biodiesel is a recognised mainsteam fuel (ASTM) AND is often added in small percentages to ULSD to restore lubricity AND doesn't benefit our enemies, I'd say biodiesel is more legitimate than petrodiesel.

Then there's the whole environmental sustainability issue...

[Halitosis]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fluxcore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Well, now were splitting fine hairs.

It's like asking whether our birth was as important as our puberty. In the second, we become men, but it would also be impossible without the first event.

Since pump biodiesel is a recognised mainsteam fuel (ASTM) AND is often added in small percentages to ULSD to restore lubricity AND doesn't benefit our enemies, I'd say biodiesel is more legitimate than petrodiesel.

Then there's the whole environmental sustainability issue... </div></div>


These are actually pretty BIG hairs that are are splitting... and when the chopping block comes down, it's split into two big ones..

ENGINEERING vs. POLITICS.

I'm not commenting on the POLTICAL side, since I disagree with most of the politics that surround me anyway, and I won't bother tying up this thread with that sort of irrelevence anyway.

But on the ENGINEERING SIDE, it's NOT correct that biofuel is "the correct fuel" to use in a modern diesel engine. For the most part, (since I can't account for EVERY single engineer that worked on the design), the 7.3/6.0/6.4 (etc) engine simply wasn't DESIGNED for use with the biofuels.

Modern gas pedals originated from buggy whips that were cracked against a horse's ass to get them moving. Does that mean that it's more legitimate for me to sit behind my steering wheel shouting "HYAH!!", expecting my vehicle to move?

Now, that's (an attempt at) a comical extreme... and it is true, we can get diesel engines to work with biofuel (WVO or BioD) with minimal effort... but the fuel that the engines are designed to use is #1 or #2 dino-diesel.

Look at the different threads that have popped up about how to blend biodiesel in the winter to lower the viscosity so that it can be burned. Look at threads that pop up from time to time that talk about "wet-stacking" (and how it's probably more prevalent with biofuel than with #2 diesel)... look at the threads that talk about how the TIMING is just a SMIDGE off when burning bio-fuel rather than dino-fuel.

There are more examples, but these are just off the top of my head.

From an ENGINEERING standpoint (which is where this thread was originating from)... the modern diesel engine is NOT DESIGNED to run on biofuel. It it were, these items (and more) would all be accomodated for in a STOCK configuration, and this discussion board would be minimized to near nothing.

Saying that biofuel is more "legitimate" because you believe in the politics behind it doesn't change the engineering that went into it.

I'll step off my soap box now... because my intent wasn't to start a flaming war, or make any enememies on the board... but I believe that saying "biofuel is the correct fuel" is not an accurate statement... at least in the engineering context of THIS thread.


(BTW: I just learned you can't quote more than "three levels" deep... that took me a bit to figure out)

Halitosis

[Minuteman3]

Halitosis,

HYAH! You crack me up. I'm still half-chuckling at that, and I may try it this summer when the windows are down and I'm at a stop light!

You make your point, and I'd agree. Modern diesel engines are manufactured and designed to run on petroleum fuels because that is pure economics. The economy (impacted by politics) has driven the automobile market to burn petroleum since Ford built his first production line. We've learned a lot since then, and have resultingly made our machines much more complex, much more "refined" and the result is a very powerful and impressive hunk of steel.

That doesn't mean that we can't ween them from their diet back to a more organic fuel supply!

I'll also throw this in there, although the engine is designed to run on petroleum diesel, only the newest engines out there are designed to run on ULSD. What I mean by "designed to run on ULSD" is that their warranty is reduced and maintenance schedule is changed, and the buyer is told in print to expect to replace standard components much sooner than the older engines.

I would never run a diesel engine, new or old, on today's diesel at the pumps without adding a fuel supplement such as those offered by Power Service (Diesel Fuel Supplement and Diesel Kleen are the two I use, seasonally).

I'll also add that I'm disgusted that fuel companies are so greedy that they can't add this sort of fuel supplement themselves. Arguably, getting rid of lead in fuel was a good thing, not replacing it with another lubricant is a bad thing. It is like saying that coal power plants are bad, and then just removing every coal plant in the world without caring about the millions of people stuck in the cold and dark. The typical consumer should not need to spend hours in forums, researching and talking to an underground network of experience to determine that they're getting screwed at the pumps and that the diesel fuel they're spending 1/4 of their income on is not up to snuff (and saves BIG OIL 2 cents/gallon).

There are my 2 cents!

[Halitosis]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Minuteman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

You make your point, and I'd agree. Modern diesel engines are manufactured and designed to run on petroleum fuels because that is pure economics. The economy (impacted by politics) has driven the automobile market to burn petroleum since Ford built his first production line. We've learned a lot since then, and have resultingly made our machines much more complex, much more "refined" and the result is a very powerful and impressive hunk of steel.

That doesn't mean that we can't ween them from their diet back to a more organic fuel supply!

I'll also throw this in there, although the engine is designed to run on petroleum diesel, only the newest engines out there are designed to run on ULSD. What I mean by "designed to run on ULSD" is that their warranty is reduced and maintenance schedule is changed, and the buyer is told in print to expect to replace standard components much sooner than the older engines.

I would never run a diesel engine, new or old, on today's diesel at the pumps without adding a fuel supplement such as those offered by Power Service (Diesel Fuel Supplement and Diesel Kleen are the two I use, seasonally).</div></div>

Very well put. I would agree.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Minuteman3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'll also add that I'm disgusted that fuel companies are so greedy that they can't add this sort of fuel supplement themselves. Arguably, getting rid of lead in fuel was a good thing, not replacing it with another lubricant is a bad thing. It is like saying that coal power plants are bad, and then just removing every coal plant in the world without caring about the millions of people stuck in the cold and dark. The typical consumer should not need to spend hours in forums, researching and talking to an underground network of experience to determine that they're getting screwed at the pumps and that the diesel fuel they're spending 1/4 of their income on is not up to snuff (and saves BIG OIL 2 cents/gallon).

There are my 2 cents! </div></div>

Also very well put... but wrong. I'll leave it at that. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img]


Halitosis