New WVO fuel system design- Could it work ???

[fordnut74]

I scored myself a bosch fuel pump today that is rated for 52gph @ 150psi [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img], and am planning on using it in a completely seperate WVO fuel system. Well while trying to figure the simplest way to hook up all the plumbing, valves, switches, sensors, relays etc, I came up with an idea to eliminate most all of that. running a dual tandem fuel system. I will leave the factory fuel system just the way it came from ford, except I will add a check valve at each point where the lines go in the head. I will then rig up a similar setup for the WVO using the ports on the back of the heads. I also found a mustang style pressure regulator at the junkyard that has three ports on it. 2 that T at the regulator, and then a return. I will run the veg oil lines from the pump, at the tank, through my big Donaldson, to the pressure regulator, and to the rear fuel ports on the heads. Essentially a dead head type system, like the factory uses. I will set my pressure regulator to 80 psi, and wire my WVO pump so that the nuetral lockout feed will disable it when in park, or nuetral. Now, when the truck is cold, the Oil will be thick and not flow very well, but the #2 will be just fine, and the truck will run on it until the oil gets warmed up. Once the oil gets warm, starts flowing and the pressure exceeds the factory #2 setting(around 55psi), the Diesel will start bypassing back to the tank, as per the factory design, and the truck will continue to run on WVO. The check valves in the diesel lines will prevent the WVO from backfeeding into the diesel system. And similarly, the WVo regulator being set at a higher pressure than the factory regulator will prevent the Diesel from backfeeding the Oil. Cross cantamination solved. Again, when you go to start up in the morning, with the truck in park(or nuetral for manual), the veg oil pump will not be on, only the diesel pump. Then once you begin driving, pwr will be applied to the WVO pump, but it will only begin to run on WVO, once warm enough to flow properly, and cause the diesel to bypass. Now when you are where you need to be, put the truck in park, and the WVO pump shuts off, pressure drops, and the diesel begins to feed the motor again. Simply let the motor idle for a few seconds, and shut it off. I will figure out how long it takes to purge, but shouldn't be long. And even better yet, down the road when I do performance injectors, I will have all the fuel I could ever need. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif[/img]. Allright, please poke some holes in my system, I am all giddy right now, just seems too simple, I must be missing something [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[Ford_Forgotton]

you know what? Thats a freakin BRILLIANT idea! And you should hurry and patent the design! Seriously!

The way our heads are designed with the fuel ports at either end of the head lead PERFECTLY to this design! Check balls at each end should prevent feeding diesel into the WVO and vice versa.

Also, you wouldnt have to purge the entire fuel system (filter and all lines) at shutdown, just kill the WVO pump and the diesel should start to flow into the rails immediately. Fuel purge would be fairly quick. Maybe a minute or so?

Also, if you routed your WVO fuel lines near a heat source, they would thin out before entering the fuel rails while your warming up the truck in the morning.

GREAT piece of brainstorming. Now everyone come in and shoot it full of holes so we can find any potential pitfalls, or maybe an easier way to do all this.

[Pharkor]

- use an adapter to connect your WVO fuel to an external "oil cooler" per say ... just an extension of two lines 'twisted' & 'looped' together - one with oil - one with WVO ... because by the time you switch over .. the enging will already be hot enough to burn the WVO ...

- also - not sure how you worded it .. but I would make sure that I had the WVO fuel pump pressure set at least 7-8 lbs in excess of what your regular fuel pump is set at ... THAT way you would be able (providing your check valves worked properly) whenever you flipped the switch for the auxiliary VWO fuel pump - the pressure created would exceed the pressure of your primary diesel fuel pump - hence, shutting the diesel fuel pump check valve - but you'll need to install a cheap spring loaded by-pass valve on your diesel fuel line prior to the check valve and after the fuel pump/filter assembly.

- Jimmy

[Ford_Forgotton]

[ QUOTE ]
- also - not sure how you worded it .. but I would make sure that I had the WVO fuel pump pressure set at least 7-8 lbs in excess of what your regular fuel pump is set at ... THAT way you would be able (providing your check valves worked properly) whenever you flipped the switch for the auxiliary VWO fuel pump - the pressure created would exceed the pressure of your primary diesel fuel pump - hence, shutting the diesel fuel pump check valve - but you'll need to install a cheap spring loaded by-pass valve on your diesel fuel line prior to the check valve and after the fuel pump/filter assembly.

- Jimmy

[/ QUOTE ]

Another option would be to use a "make-before-break" switch. Flip the switch to WVO and that turns on the WVO pump and shuts off the diesel pump, but you do it in such a way that both pumps run for a brief second so that you dont lose fuel pressure and get a hiccup. Or just use two master switches. Flip on WVO, wait a second, flip off diesel and then repeat to switch back.

Although I think I read it that he wants to wire the WVO pump into the gear indicator so that the WVO pump only runs when the truck is in any gear but PARK. Putting it in park would shut off the WVO and start to diesel purge the lines.

[Pharkor]

so he's going to let his truck set idling for 15-20 minutes before driving it every morning? Novel concept - impractical in my opinion.

[SCMike]

Fordnut74,
Have you heard this guy's story http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/ubb....602174&p=3 ?? I just finished reading it and it was full of great adventures and misadvs.. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]
What type of WVO are you going to be using? Where did you mount your second fuel tank and filler neck??
I gotta find an alternative fuel buddy here in Santa Cruz, CA and get on it..
Good Luck
Mike

[Ford_Forgotton]

[ QUOTE ]
so he's going to let his truck set idling for 15-20 minutes before driving it every morning? Novel concept - impractical in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously not, but by some creative routing of the WVO lines past the exhaust system, it wouldnt take but a minute or two for the lines to get warm enough to flow oil.

You would also have a master override built in if you were just gonna blast up to the store real quick and never get the truck up to temp enough to warrant using the veggie oil side of the system.

Its really quite a simple idea, and the engine design really makes it an easy implementation.

[fordnut74]

First, thanks for all the great Feedback so quick!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I think I may have confused a few with my less than clear description. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
you know what? Thats a freakin BRILLIANT idea! And you should hurry and patent the design! Seriously!


[/ QUOTE ] Thanks, know much about the patent process??


[ QUOTE ]
use an adapter to connect your WVO fuel to an external "oil cooler" per say ... just an extension of two lines 'twisted' & 'looped' together - one with oil - one with WVO ... because by the time you switch over .. the enging will already be hot enough to burn the WVO

[/ QUOTE ] I already have a few heat exchangers in my current setup, including a few wraps around the exhaust pipe. As it is My truck is driveable after a cold start on oil after about 2-3 minutes. Takes about 10 minutes for it to get up to normal power.

[ QUOTE ]
- also - not sure how you worded it .. but I would make sure that I had the WVO fuel pump pressure set at least 7-8 lbs in excess of what your regular fuel pump is set at ... THAT way you would be able (providing your check valves worked properly) whenever you flipped the switch for the auxiliary VWO fuel pump - .


[/ QUOTE ]
That is EXACTLY what I had planned. The factory setting is around 55psi, my WVO will be set to about 80psi.

[ QUOTE ]
the pressure created would exceed the pressure of your primary diesel fuel pump - hence, shutting the diesel fuel pump check valve - but you'll need to install a cheap spring loaded by-pass valve on your diesel fuel line prior to the check valve and after the fuel pump/filter assembly

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the beauty of the stock system, it already has a bypass built into the fuel bowl. Once the oil warms up, and the higher pressure of WVO system comes into play, it will cause the #2 to essentially go into recirc. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Another option would be to use a "make-before-break" switch. Flip the switch to WVO and that turns on the WVO pump and shuts off the diesel pump, but you do it in such a way that both pumps run for a brief second so that you dont lose fuel pressure and get a hiccup. Or just use two master switches. Flip on WVO, wait a second, flip off diesel and then repeat to switch back.


[/ QUOTE ] This is one of my PROUD [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif[/img] parts the plan, no switch will be needed. The Diesel Pump will be running any time the truck is, but will only provide #2 to the motor whenver the WVO oil pressure is lower than the stock fuel pressure, such as when it is cold, or when it is in park. There should never be a hiccup at all.

[ QUOTE ]
Although I think I read it that he wants to wire the WVO pump into the gear indicator so that the WVO pump only runs when the truck is in any gear but PARK. Putting it in park would shut off the WVO and start to diesel purge the lines.


[/ QUOTE ] EXACTLY!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
so he's going to let his truck set idling for 15-20 minutes before driving it every morning? Novel concept - impractical in my opinion

[/ QUOTE ] Not at all. Again the #2 will always be available, until the WVO is warmed up enough to provide the fuel pressure needed.

[ QUOTE ]
What type of WVO are you going to be using? Where did you mount your second fuel tank and filler neck??
I gotta find an alternative fuel buddy here in Santa Cruz, CA and get on it..
Good Luck
Mike


[/ QUOTE ]
I use whatever the local Deli, restaraunts have, usually canola. I have a 70gallon tank in the bed, and have been using WVO for 15,000 miles already. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

As an extra idea, I may install a pressure switch in the system, so that once the fuel presure is above the factory 55, like say 65psi, a little LED comes on to let me know that I am on OIL.

[Super_Dave]

Wow, this is great!

Nice job.

Are you going to build something or are you just going to try to help people do the same.

Might be complex for me to do personally...time, etc.

If you were going to make something....hmmm, I'd be interested.

[toyotafan]

fordnut74,

That's a great idea. It's very similar to what I'm currently building. Here's a post from me about my set-up: http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbt...592&Forum=. The only difference from what I'm setting up is that you'll be constantly running the diesel pump. My question is why run the diesel pump when you're on oil? You're just wearing it out faster. That's why I'm using a temperature switch to operate two relays. One for the diesel pump and one for the oil pump. The diesel relay will be a NC relay so that it is the 'default' mode when starting. The oil relay will be a NO relay. When the temp switch closes (and operates both relays) it will simultaneously open the NC diesel pump relay and close the NO oil pump relay. Ford_Forgotten, I see no way that he's going to get a hiccup when switching if the oil is warm (thus my use of the temp switch). Have you ever started your truck (or any other fuel injected vehicle) by simply getting in and turning the key? If you don't turn the key to 'on' and wait for the pump to prime then it's the same thing. There's enough pressure and volume of fuel in the fuel rail to allow it to start (thanks to the factory check valve(s)). Within probably a second or two the pump has filled the rail backup and everything is fine. As far as the check valves close to the heads, that's exactly what I had planned. My thought came from hearing people talk about long purge times. Why pump it through the stock filter? Minimize the area of 'dual fuel' in the system and purge time is reduced. The power for my relay switching will be tied into the circuit that is not controlled by my turbo timer. When I shut the truck off it will 'default' back to diesel because the NC relay will lose power and close, turning on the diesel pump. This will obviously also shut off the oil pump. Also, I am installing a three position rocker switch on the dash so I can switch between 'auto' (temp switch controlled), 'diesel' and 'oil'. That way, if I run out of oil I can simply reach over and switch it to diesel, etc. This will give me full control of the system from the seat. Also, running the oil pump when the oil's cold may kill it quickly. That's another reason I'm using the temp switch.

[DandE]

My biggest concern would be the extra filtering of the stock filter system will be lost. But otherwise is sounds great.

[toyotafan]

I researched the filter options and came up with the following: A filter base was bought from the local Peterbilt shop (as per fordnut74's suggestion - thanks again!) for $22. It has the 1"-14 threads. I found a Fram filter that will fit this base. I called Fram and got micron ratings on a boat-load of their filters. P1104 is a 2 micron rated final fuel filter. That's the one I'm going to use. With the filtering I'll be doing while collecting and pumping into my tank (10 micron filter), I don't think it will be a problem. P1104's are $6.86 at Advance Auto, so I can afford to replace quite a few of them, though I doubt it will need to be replaced that often. I'll mount it as fordnut74 did on his install (thanks again for the idea) right above the exhaust manifold/valve cover to insure very good heat transfer.

[tsaunders]

What about a veg pump cutoff switch in case you're low on oil, so you don't run it dry and burn your pump? You could use it for a few minutes in the morning before it gets warm, too, also for pump longevity against frozen oil.

I'm sure you could automate it somehow to retain your "no switch" design.

[fordnut74]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice job.

Are you going to build something or are you just going to try to help people do the same.

Might be complex for me to do personally...time, etc.

If you were going to make something....hmmm, I'd be interested.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, and I do plan on building it. My truck is in the garage right now. I will keep track of what materials I use to make easily replicable.

Fordturbodiesel- sounds like a score on the fram. How big is it? Also I would take that 2 micron rating with a grain of salt. Just becaue it will filter down to 2 micron, does not mean it will filter everything that small. In reality it may only catch %20 of the 2 micron where it will catch 90% of 10 micron or larger. This is known as the "beta" rating, and is far more accurate at judging a filters real world performance. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Kwikkordead]

Fordnut I like your idea a lot. Very nice simple interface for the driver. The only change that I would do is put a manual command rocker switch on the dash somewhere that allows me to choose which fuel to use in case I run out of veg on the way home. Or to override the veg on a REALLY cold morning and the tank is now a block of shortening.
Now that I think on it a little more, I think you don't want to have both pumps running constantly due to the possibility of overheating the pump that is not being used. They don't like being deadheaded for long periods of time. There must be a pressure release and fuel return at all times and the dual system is great, but one or the other pump will be deadheaded.