Potential new pump for FN74 system-Good and Bad - Page 3 - Diesel Forum

RLDSL · 01-10-2006, 10:56 AM

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Do you have a link for the dealer? It didn't pop up on google. Thanks.

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Look in your local yellow pages for a Carrier Transcold dealer. It should be listed under either Trucks or Trailers/ dealers or repair.

-------Robert

flyingisbest · 01-10-2006, 11:46 PM

Jason and others, just thinking out loud, as I am running into the same thing...my Aeromotive seems to be dropping pressure, while I noticed that the fuel power switch on my pillar pod is getting pretty hot to the touch. Not good, power draw is likely way up, and the pressure between the pump and the filter is likely way up too. Will have to investigate. But barring other mods, the only way to alleviate the pump early death problem, seems to me, is to add another pressure relief valve to protect the pump. Set it at say, 120psi. At least you have then an upper limit and a blowoff to avoid a near dead head at the filter when it clogs. I am a it discouraged that my huge filter may be already clogged, as there are only about 400 miles on the element. Whaddya think?

RLDSL · 01-10-2006, 11:51 PM

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Jason and others, just thinking out loud, as I am running into the same thing...my Aeromotive seems to be dropping pressure, while I noticed that the fuel power switch on my pillar pod is getting pretty hot to the touch. Not good, power draw is likely way up, and the pressure between the pump and the filter is likely way up too. Will have to investigate. But barring other mods, the only way to alleviate the pump early death problem, seems to me, is to add another pressure relief valve to protect the pump. Set it at say, 120psi. At least you have then an upper limit and a blowoff to avoid a near dead head at the filter when it clogs. I am a it discouraged that my huge filter may be already clogged, as there are only about 400 miles on the element. Whaddya think?

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Are you cold or hot pre filtering your oil?

fordnut74 · 01-11-2006, 01:16 AM

Flying is best, and others, [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img], You are right, as the pumps loads up, it draws more current. The quick fix is to use a resettable fuse, or circuit breaker of about 25 amps for the Aero. Like you said, as the pump loads up, it draws more current. when the CB trips, time to change the filter, reset the CB, and life is good. The proper fix, which is what i am in the middle of now, is to move the FPR to before the filter, instead of after. That way your pump can never see more than whatever the FPR is set to, in my case 75. The only issue with that is that without the filter in the recirculatory loop, it does not get a fresh supply of heated oil, so you need a heated filter. Hence, one of the reasons for my heated filter trial in another thread. It has been killing me not sharing stuff on here as I develop it, however I have decided that this is going to be more a hobby than a primary source of income, so I feel better about sharing a bit more backyard ducktape stories. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

mm0015 · 01-11-2006, 08:00 AM

When my Aero was locking up on me, the full stall current was slightly over 30 Amps. I know this because the fuse I had was 30A and it would blow it, but it would take few seconds. I reccomend that if you are not running a relay to make sure your switch is rated for this kind of current, as well as all your wire. The safest solution would be a relay. I am not comfortbale with having 30A power circuits into the cab.

Jason, the other side effect to your new design change (I am sure you know this though) is that pressure will steadily drop as restriction in your filter builds. Before the pump would increase its pressure to compensate, but with this design that will not happen. the good part abut this is that a pressure gauge on the outlet of the filter will make it easier to monitor remaining filter life.

Mark

fordnut74 · 01-11-2006, 12:11 PM

Mark- Yep, just over 30A for the Aero is my experiance as well. Which is why I would recomend about a 25A CB to help the life of the Aero. I have my relay under the hood for the pump, but I wouldn't worry too much about a 30A circuit in the truck though so long as it is properly fused. There are several 30+ circuits from the Factory inside.

On the rediseign, you are right, to an extent. I already monitor fuel pressure from the fuel rail, so I notice a slow drop in pressure anyway as the filter plugs up. Just that the pump loads up a whole lot more, which is bad for pump life. Right now, with the way the filter is setup, the oil recirculates through the filter constantly which, and the filter "filters" more and more everytiime the fluid goes through it.

Pros - to this is EXTREMELY clean oil after a bit. Remember, that Donanldson filters out 50% of 2 micron and smaller every pass.

Cons - Shorter filter life, loads up pump for shorter life.

Pending Redesign- Puts filter inline between FPR and heads. This way ONLY what the motor is using goes through the filter, and only once, essentially identical to the factory design.

Pros - Theoretically longer filter life since the filter only filters once, and at 9 micron absolute. Extended filter pump life, easier plumbing. Easier to notice filter plugging without added system electrical and mechanical stress.

Cons - Not as good of filtering, but since 10 micron is seems to be the acceptable level, should be fine. Will make a heated filter MANDATORY.

Some already have a heated filter on the suction side, but I refuse to do this. I will never put a primary filter on the suction side. OEM's have not done this for years unless there was a lift pump, filter, then HP pump lke the 2 tank Fords gassers.

ToddT · 01-11-2006, 12:52 PM

Where is all this loading up of the pump coming from? Clogged filters? Barring a clogged filter, does the Mallory pump operate normally without tripping breakers?

Unlike you guys, I'm still running through the stock fuel pump and filter. However, I found that better heating in the tank has greatly reduced filter clogging. Also, avoiding partially hydrogenated oils (or separating out the heavy gunk) helps.

As I see it, if we filter the oil to 5 micron before it goes into the tank, it should take a LONG time to clog a 10 micron filter in the truck. What is clogging our filters? I have observed the 'snot' which is related to the heating/cooling cycle of the oil.

I used to feel the idea was to add a little heat all along the fuel path. I'm now leaning to getting as much of the heat gain right at the tank or immediately after it and then using various means (hose in hose, nichrome wire heaters, etc.) to maintain the veg oil temperature.

FN74, good luck on your heated filter design. I look forward to reports of a successful prototype.

Todd

mm0015 · 01-11-2006, 02:41 PM

Jason, I agree with your design change, but I am not so sure you will see a longer life on the filters, in fact I think it may be less. The reason I think this, is because the filter gets most everything on the first pass, and subsequent passes should not add much dirt to the media. The second reason, is because the loading up of the pump (although I am sure its not good for pump life) allowed you to get more life out of the filters. The extreme pump pressure allowed a higher pressure drop across the filter. With the new design, once the filters become too restrictive, the pressure drop will prevent your check valves from staying firmly in the VO mode. Though, since the flow of the filter will now depend upon the demand of the engine, this problem will only be an issue at first on WOT. I don't see this as an issue, its just that if people do not change the filter when it reaches this point, the engine will consume an increasingly larger amount of #2 along with the VO.

Mark

fordnut74 · 01-11-2006, 03:40 PM

Mark- You may be right on that, but I hoping for the best, only testing will tell for sure. However, when recirculating, like it is now, the filter is essentially going to be acting as a 2 micron, not a 9 micron absolute. For example, say it is pumping at the rate of 1 gpm. and we have about 1 gallon of oil in the looped system.

1min- we have circulated 1 gallon, and it is filtered at 9micron
absolute, AND 50% of all particles down to 2micron.

2min- 2 gallons, all 9 micron and larger, and half again of what was left of the 2 micron and larger, or 75% of 2micron

3min- 3 gallons, 87.5% of 2micron and larger.

4min- 4 gallons, 93.25% of 2micron and larger

5min- 5 gallons, 96.125% of 2 micron and larger.

6min- 6 gallons, 97.688% of 2 micron and larger.

This is not including of course fuel consumption and new fuel to the system. But the recirculatory nature of the system has increased the effectiveness(not efficiency) of this 9micron absolute to nearly a 2 micron absolute. So by changing the design, I will only be passing the oil through the filter once, on it's way to the motor, where it will be acting as a 9 micron absolute, not a 2. And of course a 9 micron should last longer than a 2 micron. Or at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/phoney.gif[/img]. Time will tell. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

fordnut74 · 01-11-2006, 03:57 PM

Todd- According to my theory, your stock filter should last longer. Because only what the motor uses goes through it. So say in 50hrs of operation, the stock filter may see only 225 gallons of fuel, where my recirculatory design may see 3,500 gallons in that same time period. And as I explained earlier every pass catches more stuff. But it is not a bad thing at all, just better filtering. I noticed a significant change in filter life as well after my first revision where I used larger lines, and stopped circulating through the heads. This was done in an attempt to help unload the pump and increased the volume of oil considerably. But resulted in shorter filter life(better filtering) so that I only get about 2,000 miles out of a filter instead of 4k. Hope that helps explain things a bit. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

mm0015 · 01-11-2006, 05:06 PM

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But resulted in shorter filter life(better filtering) so that I only get about 2,000 miles out of a filter instead of 4k.

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Well in that case, the recirculated oil must take a larger toll then I expected. At any rate, I hope it does indeed increase the filter life. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Mark

flyingisbest · 01-11-2006, 10:22 PM

Update of my previous post about clogged filter, I was incorrect. The fpr simply backed out a bit, causing reduced pressure. I took the truck out for a bit of heavy footed fun and it seems fine, and under severe load (foot to the floor going uphill) the pressure drops only about 3 psi so all is well. The switch does still get hot, which makes sense since there is lilely 10 to 15 amps and maybe more running through it. It is protected at 30 amps by the stock accessory self resetting circuit breaker (the big removable metal cased one in the fuse bos) under the dash and the wire is large so it is protected just fine but the switch just gets a bit hot. Also I have an AC Delco electric lift pump in series with the Aeromotive, so it makes sense the switch is hot. I think it is rated at 20 amps. The filter I use is an FS1000, which is about 9 inches tall and is rated to load up with a fairly large amount of solids, as well as separating water out, so maybe it will last well over 1000 miles. I will let you all know in a bit. Right now my filter is post pump and pre fpr, so I recirculate hot as well, in addition to adding heat at the filter head and pre-pump. When I remove everything again to get warranty work done (ugh) I may add another fpr to the pump outlet, to protect the pump. But since my circuit is protected at 30 amps and shares about 5 amps with the lift pump and whatever else is on the circuit, the breaker should trip first anyway. I ran some numbers, and even if my filter had clogged now, it would have equated to about 40 cents per gallon in truck filter cost. Not great but still a lot cheaper than $2.59, the present local diesel cost and doing something "green" to boot. Now I gotta tightn that fpr locknut down again so the fuel pressure doesn't wander like it did....

JOAT · 01-12-2006, 11:39 AM

Not sure on the pressure side, but my FS1000 lasted over 6000 miles on the suction side, and that was when my final filter at the house was a 20 micron absolute.

flyingisbest · 01-21-2006, 01:04 AM

Hey,sweet, that's good news. I took a look at the data for that filter, and if my memory serves (sometimes it doesn't), it has about 75 grams of dirt holding capacity, about triple that of the next size smaller water separator type in the same family (FS1212). Also has super high efficiency, in the 90's I recall, and is about a 5 micron filter. I understand the Donaldson Jason is using is pretty similar. The point I am trying to make is that it is easy to end with bad economy buying a slightly cheaper filter, when in fact saving a couple bucks on a filter element slightly smaller, can get you a filter only capable of say, 10% of the dirt holding capacity. So I would recommend to compare the specs before purchasing.