Testing an HHO system on my 1991 7.3L NA

[bucketeer]

Hi guys, If anyone is interested in the results of my project please join in.
I have a 1991 Ford SD Bucket truck with about 87K miles on it. (It was a telco splicer truck so it has low miles.
It runs and starts great get about 11 miles to the gal when it is moving ;-)
I am not hung up on getting great gains in MPG although it would be nice at $40 a day operating cost.
My problem is I have to leave the truck idling for long periods of time to run the belt driven aerial hydraulic pump. When I am working around the truck sometimes the fumes are so bad it is as if I had soap in my eyes. I am looking to clean up the emissions.
I need some answers to a few questions.
Just what functions do the OBD I computer actually do?
There aren't any sensors that are like the new PS turbo engines. Just an old mechanical pump that shoots fuel into the cylinders at the right time. Right?
I am going to be going about this project in a scientific manner so I should once and for all come to some conclusions.
I am 70 years old and have been working with component level electronics, computers and mechanical devices for over 50 years so installing this gear shouldn't be that tough.
I expect to be installing a flow meter in the fuel line from the tank, also a precision electronic hour, min, second clock to get my flow rate data.
I will be testing different gas injection points like directly in the air intake and maybe T-ed into a vacuum line.
I have read for 3 years now how it won't work and it is all a scam so don't even bother if you are going to go there.
I have built several cells and torches and I know about HHO gas and what it is capable of doing. I also know the main problem in gas engines is that the cars computer finds the mixture getting leaner and bumps up the injection pulse of gas to bring the mixture back into pre programed richer parameters so as soon as it does it's thing any gains that were initially there are lost.
With my diesel it is a "whole nuther ball game" so the outcome should be pretty cut and dried.
Anyone want to play along join me and we will see if this bumble bee can fly. Truly hope I haven't violated any rules with my first major post.
Thanks for leaving the door open,

[Mark Kovalsky]

The only rules you are violating are the laws of physics, but you don't want to hear about that.

[chuckster57]

Since your working with an IDI that is TOTALY mechanical, there isn't any concern about what the OBDI computer is tracking. There isn't one one the IDI Diesel engine. The only electrical parts needed are the starter, glow plugs (at start-up) and the fuel shut off solenoid.

With that said, enjoy your experiments and please post results.

[bucketeer]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

Since your working with an IDI that is TOTALY mechanical, there isn't any concern about what the OBDI computer is tracking. There isn't one one the IDI Diesel engine. The only electrical parts needed are the starter, glow plugs (at start-up) and the fuel shut off solenoid.

With that said, enjoy your experiments and please post results.

Thanks for the reply Chuck,
I thunk that was the way of it.
I am perfectly willing to spend the extra amps I have available to clean up the emissions. I am not looking for free energy or over unity or any of those controversial claims just some cleaner exhaust.
Thanks for the confirmation, :-)

[jd72cv11]

Hey, sounds like good stuff!

Make sure you dry out that Brown's gas real good!! I'd hate to hear about a bent rod.

Have you thought about doing a propane injection? I've heard that can also make some good mpg gains, and it can be a very simple thing.

Would you be willing to post some pictures/plans, or is this all proprietary stuff? I've only been in electronics for 20 years, so maybe I can borrow some of your advanced knowledge.

Thanks!!

[drinkypoo]

Hydrogen embrittlement, it's what's for dinner.

[bucketeer]

Heck no Johnathan,
I am not going to hide anything as this is supposed to be a fun project so I don't have to cry while I work.
Maybe look at propane a little later.
I am going to start with 2 brute force dry cells making about 2 Liters per min. Then depending on the results if more gas turns out to be better I can use my 9 tube high voltage, low current, resonant pulsed cell off my bench with the support electronics and go for better efficiency.
The dry cell parts will be in next week.
I am adding a condenser / dryer bottle before the injection.
I don't want anything but gas in my motor.
Because the injection is fixed and not under computer control I doubt if there will be much adjustment for economy. It should improve the flame front and burn much cleaner but we will see if it helps with power.
This should be fun.

[Rustyshackleford]

What is hydrogens resistance to dettanation I know propane has a octane value of about 130 so it has a lot of resistance to detonation so it's ok to induce via intake but if the hydrogen is unstable in a high pressure/high heat envrioment it might not be a wise choice to use as while in a gas motor your usually dealing with 7:1-10:1 compression ratio and in these motor you've got 24.5:1 compression ratio and diesel can burn much hotter than gas just something to think about

[bucketeer]

Rusty, Thanks for your input.
The octane rating of HHO seems to be listed at 130 also.
This is an on demand system and will not be under pressure.
If you want to see if it burns quick bubble some to the surface of a pan of water and put an aim flame to it and jump back. Just like anything worth doing you have to know where the head of the snake is at all times and proceed accordingly.
As to the heat comment. The charge actually burns cooler and more completely. I don't want to confuse things here but in a gas engine there can be as much as 70% unburnt fuel going out the exhaust. Unbelievable!
WW2 they found if they added lead to the mix it burned better and produced more power. Then came the rules of no lead in the gas as we all might die from it. Also it plugged up the cat converters that were mandated real quick.
So we were back to square one with junk fuel and a very hot cat converter cooking under your car burning up the wasted gas to meet pollution standards.. They never fixed the incomplete burning problem but just patched in an expensive fix to meet mandated cafe standards.
Hints to better mileage came during WW2 also when pilots flew just over the tops of the waves. They picked up water vapor that broke down into HHO from heat and compression. So here we go again. Sulfur is gone cetane ratings are low and to clean up the unburnt diesel we have to inject urea. What goes around comes around. Lets see what the HHO does.
Imagine the studdering and stammering that will be heard when Detroit has to meet the new 54.5 MPG standard by 2025. I'll bet they try on demand HHO as a possibility. ;-)
Also bet they loose the cat converter and actually burn all or most of the fuel they inject.

[drinkypoo]

Originally Posted by bucketeer

So here we go again. Sulfur is gone cetane ratings are low and to clean up the unburnt diesel we have to inject urea. What goes around comes around. Lets see what the HHO does.

It will do what Hydrogen always does to alloys not meant for it, it will cause embrittlement to any hot metals exposed to hydrogen which will cause them to weaken and eventually fail.

If you want to add a gas to your engine, add propane, methane, anything like that. If you want to add much of it, add an oxidizer, too. And use a wideband O2 sensor to determine how much oxidizer to add, because you don't want to add free oxygen to a hot metal cylinder either.

[bucketeer]

Hi Drink,
I wish you would give me the source of your somewhat "matter of fact information" because since your post regarding this possible problem I have been researching and ALL the results have said that there are no problems running HHO in an engine.
Please share your source information.
Have a a great Thanksgiving.

MOD: Is it ok to post links to source information or is it best to C n P the actual text?

[jasonm11]

Just for grins, you stated it is an ex telecom vehicle right? How much oil is it consuming between oil changes? Most telecom buckets get 8hrs run time a day but don't drive very far. I commend you on your project and look forward to hearing about your progress. good luck and have fun with it. Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

[bucketeer]

Where this problem seems to show up is in the storage of Hydrogen under pressure in cylinders. That is not the case in on demand systems.
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Because this topic seems to kill interest in HHO I will add this abbreviated explanation on the subject by an engineer with a degree in chemistry.
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H2 embrittlement occurs most often in the welding of steel and steel alloys where the welding temperatures are ""far above combustion chamber temperatures"" allowing ionic hydrogen (not H2) to fuse with the steel lattice structure.
Steels which have the propensity for H2 embrittlement are generally treated with heat treatments which cause the bonded hydrogen ion (not diatomic H2) to be released.
Since the combustion chambers temperatures should never approach heat of fusion temperatures (unless you're running too lean and then you've got other problems)
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Cast iron is not susceptible to H2 embrittlement. If fact, it is high alloy steels which suffer from H2 embrittlement. Cast iron blocks should be free of any H2 embrittlement problems.
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Long carbon chain molecules of diesel fuel should in themselves contribute to H2 embrittlement. Think about it, a long molecule with plenty of hydrogens hanging around here and there, and the unburned fuel issues we have (evidenced with cat converters, acid rain and urea injection) should cause H2 embrittlement even without the introduction of gaseous hydrogen.
He says, "I think the H2 embrittlement argue is a moot point."

[drcampbell]

Originally Posted by bucketeer

... I am going to start with 2 brute force dry cells making about 2 Liters per min. ...

A 7.3-liter engine idling at 600 rev/min ingests 2190 liters of air per minute.
A 2-liter/minute bubble machine delivers 1.33 liters of hydrogen per minute.
The intake air will contain 0.06% hydrogen.
There won't be any pre-ignition. The lower flammability limit of hydrogen is 4%. Less than a 4% concentration of hydrogen is too lean to ignite.
There won't be any other effects, either -- 0.06% hydrogen isn't enough to do anything.

Here's my take on the problem:
The 7.3-liter engine runs dirty at idle and fouls the workplace.
Idling a 7.3-liter engine all day is expensive, both in fuel and maintenance costs
The bucket is stationary most of the day.

And my solution:
Forget the bubble machine. Install two check valves and an auxiliary hydraulic power pack, powered either by a 4-horsepower Diesel engine, or a 12-volt electric motor and a large battery such as an 8D or a pair of L16s. The 7.3-liter engine will consume no fuel and produce zero emissions while it's turned off.

HATZ Diesel: 1B20/27/30/40/50 (V)

[bucketeer]

Common Doc, Now your taking all the fun out of this project ;-)
I have a couple of 1050 CCA deep cycle batts. and an electric over hydraulic that is "supposed to be used for emergency operation" although I do use it around quiet places.

You say without equivocation that your calculated .06% HHO injection into the airstream "Will do nothing".
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Questions please:
What % would it take to make a difference?
Have you ever tried any experiments?
Known anyone who did?
Have you read the positive results posted by hundreds of folks that have been playing with this stuff for years. ?
Can you explain the thousands of success stories?
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That is why I started this project, to find out for myself.
I was driven to do this testing by a NASA report that was written on the subject that showed favorable increased performance.
Some of my PHD friends are interested in my practical approach. I guess we will have to see.

Not pointed at you Doc,
I just find it rather humorous, I haven't even received / installed the gear, nor offered any data yet and several people on several forums that have never done any building / testing have advised "Don't bother it's a scam" .
No wonder we as a society take so long to make scientific advances. ;-)