Are these problems with WVO

[jrated]

I did an experiment yesteday and bought a 5 gal. container of fresh vegetable oil and added the same amount of diesel in my empty tank. Ran great. Started easy this morning 70*. I have arranged to pick up some WVO today but have a few concerns:

1. Read an article on forever something.com and it mentioned that the acids in WVO are harmful to the rotary style injection pump on my truck (1991 IDI). Is this just in strait WVO setups or any combintion thereof?

2. If these acids are a problem, is there a way to neutralize them, ie. fuel additive???

Any onfo would be greatly appreciated.

[OMCUSNR]

Its www.journeytoforever.org.

One of the worst problems w/ WVO in my opinion is that it creates acreolin (sp?) when burned at the temp your trucks run at. It really ain't good for us humans to breath.

Go to biodiesel.

[Pu241]

Jrated,

You need to read read the following:
Mixing WVO with #2 Diesel


As for acids in WVO, yes they are there, and if you are concerned they can be water washed from the WVO. This does make for a more complicated processing avenue, but it can be done! On the other hand the acids are generated when the oil has been over heated, the oil is generally black and has a burned smell to it. So if you can source oil that is not overly abused this will also reduce the amount of organic acids in the oil!

As for OMCUSNR_RET's assertion, that using WVO generates acrolein (spelled correctly) I refer to The Handbook of Solvents to provide us with some facts.
Acrolein
Formula: CH2CHCHO
Flash point: open cup 0 degrees F
Flash point: closed cup -15 degrees F
Boiling Point < 53 degrees C

I find it hard to believe that a properly tuned engine is going to generate materials that fall apart at zero degrees F. When the combustion process produces temperatures in excess of 1000 degrees C.
If WVO does this, then I suspect that Bio diesel, basically a methyl ester has similar potential.
Now at startup is a different issue my guess is you don't want to breath any of the exhaust products of startup; diesel, Bio-diesel, or WVO.

Just to let you sleep better, apparently Acrolein is used to manufacture: disinfectants, soap, in coffee roasting, perfumes, plastics, and fat rendering.
Source: The Handbook of Solvents
Additionally from a google search of acrolein we find it is produced when cooking oil is overheated and in cigarette smoke.

So once again I ask for OMCUSNR_RET's references for WVO used in a diesel motor producing Acrolein.

John

[blitzlaw]

I just want to second your point on this. I've been running WVO using a Greasel Nomad system for the last 2300 miles. During this time, I've seen lots of negative information about the environmental effects of burning WVO, including the Acrolein issue. The only substantiated environmental downside is higher NOx production.

On the one hand, I readily admit to knowing very little about chemistry or engineering. On the other hand I do have a strong grasp of the concept that science is based on informed analysis, grounded in the known.

From my own experience, and my belief in what others have claimed as their experience, I can confidently state that WVO is an effective replacement for petroleum diesel in many situations, if it is properly prepared and heated. Why some folks have a real problem with this is beyond me. To the extent they have experience or evidence to support their criticism, they are contributing to our future improvement of this technology. To the extent they offer unsubstantiated rumors, they are at best a distraction and at worst a deterrent to otherwise well-meaning early adopters.

I also note that OMCUSNR_RET has regularly participated in biodieselnow forums, and has a strong bent (for whatever reason) against WVO. When asked for some evidence, it's my guess that he will point only to some press release from biodiesel.org.

Acrolein production has never, to my knowledge, been documented in diesel engine exhaust. Instead, it is a theoretical byproduct of the combustion of glycerine. I don't doubt that a small amount of carcinogenic material is released in my exhaust. But one can't seriously suggest that petro-diesel exhaust presents a lower health risk that WVO. Where Bio-D fits into that hierarchy remains to be seen, but it's not competitively priced for the time being.

Now what we really need are studies of heated WVO combustion systems with Petro-D and Bio-D engines as controls. Who would sponsor such a study? Who would it benefit?

Perhaps OMCUSNR_RET has some thoughts.

[Pu241]

blitzlaw,

I know a little something about chemistry and engineering, but I wish I had your command of the language!
Yeah, I'm greedy that way!

Just wish sources and references given instead of assertions, so we can work with the facts.


John

[roreri]

Yea!!! What Pu241 said !!!

RoReRi

[jrated]

Convern alleviated, Thanks.
As of Sat. I have 50 gal of WVO and have ran 25 gal. through cheese cloth. I then mixed that with 22 gallons of diesel. I took a sample and seperation has not occured at this point. There is a very small amount of something at the bottom of the jar (looks like globs of fat) but other than that perfect. I have a dual filter setup coming that should be here friday and will be getting some filters from a filter supply store before puting in my fuel tank. I was wondering what miron filters I should use for the first and final filter before it goes into my fuel tank??????????????? I was thinking a 25 micron followed by a 15 or a 5 micron depending what my stock fuel filter provides. In other words I want the second filter to be the same micron rating as my stock fuel filter. Any suggestions??????????

[ToddT]

Check out his handle... blitzlaw. As I recall, blitzlaw is studying to take the Bar exam to become a lawyer! No wonder he has such a way with words and makes such a convincing argument. He's a trained professional. People, please don't attempt at home without proper supervision!

Good posts, y'all!

Todd T

[jsr1769]

As I understand it, the process that biodiesel goes through is to remove the glycerine. In WVO the glycerine still exists and does not exit the engine after the combustable part of WVO combusts. With no where to go, the glycerine builds up in the engine, and eventually will lead to engine failure. Maybe short term or long term, most agree that wvo is not the best for your vehicle, but the processed WVO aka biodiesel is nothing but a benefit to it. I have heard of many WVO engines failing after 20K or so miles. I don't think they would have had the same results had they used processeed WVO. Maybe it was the age of the engine to begin with, but I prefer to praise the processed biodiesel.

This info comes from having discussed the difference with the owner of a biodiesel production company in GA who produces millions of gallons a year of biodiesel from WVO or yellow grease.

---------

318,000 1994 Ford F350 PSCC Lover of the highway and biodiesel!

[blitzlaw]

Wow. I'll make sure to let you know when I hit that magic 20,000 mile mark.

Let's see: 20,000 miles @ 20 MPG = 1,000 gallons of WVO (my mileage is worse, but if I were good at math I'd have gone to medical school).

I'm not sure exactly how much glycerine is in a gallon of WVO, but assuming it's 10%, that would be 100 gallons of glycerine building up in a 7.3 liter engine. No wonder those engines were totaled out.

Now I've got to worry about my turbo getting clogged with soap!!!

I better start paying your friend in GA for that Bio-D now.

On a more serious note, have you ever SEEN or TALKED to the OWNER of a WVO powered vehicle with coking or other engine damage? Now a post by one of those folks would be truly helpful.

I think PSDs are more likely to suffer cavitation damage from improperly maintained SCA levels than to coke up from WVO. At least there is a documented history of cavitation damage to go along with the convincing theory of how it occurs.

I was thinking of offering a reward: $100.00 for information leading to a recorded interview with an owner of a pre-heated WVO powered vehicle who suffered engine damage.

I'll pay for it with profits from selling my mail-order snipe calls.

[Ford_Forgotton]

[ QUOTE ]


I'm not sure exactly how much glycerine is in a gallon of WVO, but assuming it's 10%, that would be 100 gallons of glycerine building up in a 7.3 liter engine. No wonder those engines were totaled out.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, its higher. Around 20% by MASS. When you make Bio-D, you typically use about 20% methanol to replace the glycerine that is being removed. (plus or minus a few points).

Glycerine DOES BURN! It just burns at a higher temp. The fear is a cold burn will lead to the injectors going bad or ring stick, etc etc. Same fears of burning regular #2 cold.

[ToddT]

When you say cold burn, does that have anything to do with the engine temp? I've heard that diesels run better at higher temps. If so, would running the 203 degree thermostat and the Evans NGC non-aqueous coolant help?

Todd T

[Ford_Forgotton]

I say cold burn such as extended idling, and cold weather startups. At idle, on a cold day, these trucks barely make 200-250 degrees pre turbo pyro temp. Thats too cold. Thats why they sell the AIC (idle controllers) to ramp the idle up so that you can get into the 300-400 degree range.

The powerstroke is just designed to get rid of heat. Huge radiator, oil cooler, cooling system design, etc etc. You could run a "cold front" grille in 100 degree heat and the truck prolly wouldnt overheat.

But at idle, on a cold day, the engine wont get hot enough and that creates problems.

It takes quite a long time of doing that tho, so I wouldnt worry about it unless you let your truck idle alllllllll night looooooong.

[ToddT]

Thanks for the info. I have been planning on installing an AIC anyway so this is another justification. And, down here where we have maybe four days of cold weather... shouldn't be too much of a problem. When I do have a trip up to the Great White North during winter I'll just be very careful with the temps and make sure we have sufficient purge time when switching.

Thanks again.

Todd T

[TCH777]

So what is it in regular #2 that "waxes" or gels up when it gets too cold outside?

Just wondering because that looks about the same as soap too.

Tim