Water4diesel, water4gas. Ever heard of this?

[knapp]

I fited the unit to a mates Nissan 6 cylider diesel. No electronic on fuel injection.
He has approx 11% increase in milage.
I have it fitted to Ford Trader Truck 4 cylinder Diesel. Runs better but no figures on milage.
Also fitted to F350 7.3 2001 model and the jury is out at present with reference to milage increase.
Still need research on the best design of generators.
An on going project!
Regards
Ron

[gmcmeod]

followed all the threads. sounds like a good deal. don't see any results for the ford diesels and any explanation of how easy it was to install. can anyone provide?

Thanks

[drcampbell]

Some solid information about hydrogen boosting:
"http://www.fuelsaving.info/hydrogen.htm"

[japar]

Looks like with diesel at almost $4 a gallon looks like it time to finish the hydrogen generator project LOL

[simone0414]

These have been around for quite a while now. Do a search on ebay. Lots for sale there.

Do they work? Out of all the guys I read about trying this I'd say about 30% say they see a bit more power & a bit more fuel economy. About 10% say alot more fuel mileage. The rest say it doesn't do jack. My friend paid 400 bucks for one & put it on his 96 Dodge Gasser. He said he saw no difference. Hydrogen will work. Look at the space shuttle. That's what those big rocket boosters burn. But look at how big they are. That's the problem. IMHO you would have to be towing a big tank around behind you to inject enough HHO to see a noticeable difference. Plus it takes more energy to make the HHO then you get back from it.

[drmiller100]

Originally Posted by simone0414

Plus it takes more energy to make the HHO then you get back from it.

a LOT more energy to make it then you get back.

[simone0414]

Originally Posted by drmiller100

a LOT more energy to make it then you get back.

Yep. Your falling behind the whole time.

Some day I expect though someone will figure out a way to make hyrodgen work. I hope so. I can't wait until I can fill up my tank with my garden hose.

[drcampbell]

Originally Posted by simone0414

... Some day I expect though someone will figure out a way to make hyrodgen work. ...

Hydrogen works just fine as a fuel right now, and always has, and always will. It's not hydrogen that doesn't work; it's the process for extracting hydrogen. Which also works just fine; it just doesn't break even on energy invested.

Just as soon as the first Texas wildcatter successfully drills the first hydrogen well, we'll be in the hydrogen business.

Until then, we're stuck with the fact that extracting hydrogen from water consumes more energy than hydrogen releases when it's used as fuel. Which may be OK if you're using it to convert stationary energy (such as a hydroelectric dam) into mobile energy.

[macinco]

First, let me say that I have no personal experience from any of these hydrogen generator things, but, I would like to put forward a couple points: (And i do believe it is a well known fact that the energy used in the electrolysis to seperate the H2 and O is more than you will get back from burning (recombining) that H2 and O).

1) I think the principle behind these is that the H2 and O that gets into the cylinder will ignite before the injection of the "fuel" resulting in the "fuel" being injected into fire, resulting in a better/more complete burning of that "fuel". It is my understanding that this is where the reported higher mileage/power comes from (not from the energy of the H2 and O recombining). Just like propane (and all the same dangers of "untimed" propane being sucked into your cylinders).

2) There are other ways to make hydrogen other than electrolysis is there not? For example, take a hunk of aluminum and put it in a nice strong solution of lye/NaOH and water. I think hydrogen (among other npn gaseous things) will be generated. How would one regulate (start/stop) this process in a vehicular application? Not so easy I am guessing. Electrolysis on the other hand would be easy (a switch).

Anyone ever run propane? Did you get better mpg/power? The answer to this will be whether the hydrogen things work I am thinking.

It's more like a catalyst than a fuel.

[simone0414]

Originally Posted by drcampbell

Hydrogen works just fine as a fuel right now, and always has, and always will. It's not hydrogen that doesn't work; it's the process for extracting hydrogen. Which also works just fine; it just doesn't break even on energy invested.

Just as soon as the first Texas wildcatter successfully drills the first hydrogen well, we'll be in the hydrogen business.

Until then, we're stuck with the fact that extracting hydrogen from water consumes more energy than hydrogen releases when it's used as fuel. Which may be OK if you're using it to convert stationary energy (such as a hydroelectric dam) into mobile energy.

That's what I meant.

[drmiller100]

Originally Posted by drcampbell

Hydrogen works just fine as a fuel right now, and always has, and always will. It's not hydrogen that doesn't work; it's the process for extracting hydrogen. Which also works just fine; it just doesn't break even on energy invested.

Just as soon as the first Texas wildcatter successfully drills the first hydrogen well, we'll be in the hydrogen business.

Until then, we're stuck with the fact that extracting hydrogen from water consumes more energy than hydrogen releases when it's used as fuel. Which may be OK if you're using it to convert stationary energy (such as a hydroelectric dam) into mobile energy.

never use 11 words when 115 will suffice.

[drcampbell]

Originally Posted by macinco

... I think the principle behind these is that the H2 and O that gets into the cylinder will ignite before the injection of the "fuel" resulting in the "fuel" being injected into fire, resulting in a better/more complete burning of that "fuel". It is my understanding that this is where the reported higher mileage/power comes from. ... It's more like a catalyst than a fuel.

A few problems with that hypothesis:

The autoignition temperature of hydrogen is more than 1000°F. It's doubtful the cylinder temperature in a Diesel engine will ever reach that temperature before fuel injection. (the autoignition temperature of #2 Diesel is less than 500°F and #1 Diesel is a little more than 400°F)

The lower flammability limit of hydrogen is 4%. No bubble machine powered by a vehicle alternator can deliver enough hydrogen to get anywhere near that threshold. A 7.3-liter engine running 2000 rev/min ingests 7300 liters of air per minute. 4% of that would be 292 l/min of hydrogen; 438 l/min of Brown's gas. Most bubble machines deliver between 1 and 10 l/min.

Even if the hydrogen did ignite and remain ignited, the output from the typical bubble machine is barely enough to create a measurable temperature rise, let alone a raging inferno which will affect the Diesel fuel's combustion.

Combustion is already 99+% complete. (unless you're overfueling and blowing black smoke or not warmed up and blowing white smoke, and in either case adding hydrogen won't improve matters)

View of Diesel fuel ignition in Sandia National Laboratory's Compression-Ignition Optical Research Engine (SCORE):

(Your federal tax dollars at work!)

Were it ever necessary to speed up combustion, ignition/injection advance would achieve the same result.

- - -

When you encounter someone claiming to have built a bubble machine which does something useful, ask these two questions:

1) How much water does it consume? Most bubble machines seem to consume little or no water. It's not making hydrogen if it's not consuming water.

2) What were the results of an A-B-A test?
A: Turn it on; drive the vehicle; measure fuel consumption.
B: Turn it off; drive the vehicle; measure & compare fuel consumption.
A: Turn it back on; drive the vehicle; measure & compare fuel consumption again.

- - -

There's been a lot of chatter on the topic which doesn't need to be repeated.
HELP - MPG stuff that actually worked for you

-

[rsr911]

I get the idea that propane or CNG injection can increase fuel economy, I believe both are less expensive per btu than diesel. I'm not buying that a hydro generator does anything but make the driver think they get better fuel economy. We had a Canadian OTR trucker in last summer with one on his newer Volvo tractor claiming he was getting 9mpg average. The trouble is his whole setup might have contained 1.5 gallons of water at most. I'm friends with the owner of a trucking company he tells me 6mpg fully loaded is typical and about 9, even 10mpg on the newer trucks in his fleet unloaded. As usual the single best improvement to fuel economy is the driver. My personal truck can get 14 or 22 mpg depending on how I drive it. Now if you hooked that alternator to the driveline and had it switched on and off automatically when the brakes are applied so it's only on when slowing down and the Brown's gas went into a storage tank until needed under load then you would possibly get an economy increase because you would be converting braking energy into future propulsion energy.

[drcampbell]

Originally Posted by rsr911

... propane [is] less expensive per btu than Diesel. ...

Actually, it's double the price on a "bang-for-the-buck" basis. There's half as much energy in a gallon of propane as there is in a gallon of Diesel fuel. Not coincidentally, a gallon of propane also weighs half as much.

Originally Posted by rsr911

... if you hooked that alternator to the driveline and had it switched on ... when the brakes are applied ... and the Brown's gas went into a storage tank until needed ...

That could work!

[macinco]

Originally Posted by drcampbell

Actually, it's double the price on a "bang-for-the-buck" basis. There's half as much energy in a gallon of propane as there is in a gallon of Diesel fuel. Not coincidentally, a gallon of propane also weighs half as much.

Do people get mileage gains from injecting propane? And do you know the auto-ignition temp of propane?