What metals are ok to use with wvo?

[ClassicFordGuy]

Thinking about how to set up my truck for wvo and am not sure some of the materials I want to use are ok.

was going to make my tank out of steel, probably 60 gal in place of my 20 gal rear tank.

Fuel pickup out of either aluminum or steel with a copper coil through the middle using brass fittings. (coolant circulates inside the steel tube while oil is sucked through the copper tube).

So any idea if any of these are bad for bio, coolant, or diesel?

Steel
Copper
Aluminum
brass

Thanks,

-Rob

[airfooter]

Avoid copper like the plague - very, very bad. Yes, some people have had amazing LUCK using it - but I've personally seen disaster several times. Carbon steel is 2nd on the no-go list. OK, maybe galvanized steel should be 2nd - it causes polymerization AND flakes off (so does POR-15 fuel tank 'sealer').

Both of these metals increase the rate of natural degradation of the VO - called polymerization. Together they do it very fast! This is the chicken-skin or fruit roll-up looking stuff you see where VO has 'dried up'. It is in effect how they make oil-based paints, but loooong before you can SEE it, it is forming and beyond a host of other show-stopping qualities will lead to a short VO fuel filter life.

Aluminum and stainless steel are the least reactive metals and SS is generally cost prohibitive.

The tube-in-shell or hose-in-hose heat exchanger you are describing is fine, just use different material. Most of us use aluminum tubing (its cheaper than copper anyway ) for fuel lines and sometimes heat exchangers. For heated fuel lines, we run the tubing inside 3/4" heater hose. On my original conversion, I had a 25ft 'loop' of this style heated lines (called Tube-in Hose or TIH) and that was PLENTY of heat for even the coldest climates. I made a 'loop' by running the return VO line all the way to the VO tank, but instead of dumping this (already hot) oil back into the tank, I tee'd it into the VO 'out' line just before the tank. This way, the 'excess' fuel returned by fuel pressure regulator was simply sucked into the supply line and effectively re-circulated.

I later switched VO pump to an internally-regulated pump (no return to tank), so I added a 16 plate flat plate heat exchanger (FPHE - $125) instead.

[drewkeen]

Couldn't have said it better.

[ClassicFordGuy]

Great thanks for the info. When you run a hose inside a hose how does the inner hose enter and exit the 3/4" heater hose? Are there special fittings?

I assume brass fittings are ok to use?

-Rob

[airfooter]

Brass is acceptable, but I have very little in contact w/VO. TIH is easily made using a 3/4" tee, nipples (or hose barbs) and a compression fitting - for each end. The tubing exits the tee thru a compression fitting (ya must drill out the 'stop' in comp. fitting). The coolant flows around tubing in hose and exits the other side of tee. I've used black iron tee's and 4" nipples cut in 1/2 for barbs for a few years now... The 'aircraft' alum tubing I use is about $1/ft at McMaster.com (3/8" rated for like 1400psi iirc?)

Here's a pic:



This is the other end. I used a 90 on the coolant side so everything goes in the same direction. No hose clamps installed yet in this pic...


You are shooting for 160* + VO before the engine. Any less is risking a slow, miserable death for your engine from carbon build-up/coking. I suggest at least a heated fuel pick-up (Hot Fox or similar), TIH fuel lines including a looped return, and at a 16 plate FPHE. The HOTTER the VO before the VO filter, the better! (or filter life will suffer)

[ClassicFordGuy]

Wow, thats a cool easy way if doing that. Thanks for the great pics. What is the "looped return" Your talking about? Do I need to heat my trucks return line to my bio tank?

$1 a foot for alum tubing seems pretty reasonable, especialy from mcmaster.

What is the 16 plate FPHE you mention and where do you get it? I understand its a heat exchanger but what for, is it for a filter?

Thanks,

-Rob

[airfooter]

Originally Posted by ClassicFordGuy

Wow, thats a cool easy way if doing that. Thanks for the great pics. What is the "looped return" Your talking about? Do I need to heat my trucks return line to my bio tank?

$1 a foot for alum tubing seems pretty reasonable, especialy from mcmaster.

What is the 16 plate FPHE you mention and where do you get it? I understand its a heat exchanger but what for, is it for a filter?

Thanks,

-Rob

If you use an internally-regulated fuel pump - there will be no return to tank on the VO side. If ya use an external, return-type regulator (similar to stock), then I recommend 'looping' that (VO) return line back into the supply line right at the tank. Basically, tee into the line coming out of tank so VO is sucked back to pump instead of returning to VO tank - creating a loop for the VO to travel. These fuel pumps all supply waaaay more fuel than the engine uses and the 'extra' normally gets returned to tank. We just pull the fuel we burn from tank and the 'extra' just circles around the loop, eventually reaching near-coolant temp!

Here's a pic of the FPHE in my trucks: ($125 frybrid.com)


and a 'loose' pic:


This is at the end of the VO lines (just before heads/engine) and the beginning of the VO coolant loop. It gets the hottest coolant and insures VO is near coolant temp before engine and also speeds time to get VO hot. When I had a looong (25ft) looped return - I did not need FPHE, that was added after going to internally-regulated VO pump (FASS HPFP) I have heated fuel pick-ups and TIH before the VO pumps and filters to make sure the oil will flow thru the filters in very cold weather. In fact ALL of my fuel lines are heated - so I can easily burn VO in weather too cold for DIESEL!

The valves here allow me to totally isolate VO system from engine. I close the coolant valve if I am driving for extended time on diesel (God forbid I run out of VO!!) Also visible is temp sender and fuel pressure sender. You can also see the teflon-lined SS hose I used for fuel lines on the engine and notice how I terminated the TIH at the FPHE...

Good Luck!

[ClassicFordGuy]

Wow, nice setup, thank you for the detailed replies.

I think for now I plan on sticking with the mechanical lift pump on my engine so no FPHE needed at this point.

I plan on replacing my rear tank with a homemade 60 gal or so alum tank and using that for wvo and the front for diesel and using the stock fuel switch valve to go between the two.

So how does this sound:

Begin tube in hose hotest side beggining near my trucks factory fuel filter, run it back to an auxiliary fuel filter on the frame rail near the fuel switch valve, continue tube in hose back to my coolant heated fuel pickup in my 60 gal wvo tank then run the coolant hose back up the the engine. I'll do the looped return line T'ed into the fuel pickup at the tank as you mentioned. I'll have at least one temp gauge back at the fuel pickup so I know when it's safe to switch.

Does this sound like a good system design?

Couple questions:

1. Is it necisary to heat the fuel return line via tube in hose? I still have the coolant line un-used running back to the engine from my heated pickup.

2. Should I get pad heaters for either my aux fuel filter or the stock one?

3. Should the temp sensor back at my fuel pickup be in the fuel or in the coolant? Or is puting one back at the fuel pickup a bad place altogether?

4. Where is a good place to buy an auxiliary filter and possibly the "coolant heated" filter mount block that the filter scews to? I was thinking of making my own coolant heated filter mount block out of block of aluminum and some fittings to save money but would still need to get the filter first.

5. Where do you get your temp and pressure sensors and guages? Looked on mcmaster for those a while back and couldn't find anything that wasn't made of gold.

Thanks so much, sorry for the long post.

-Rob

[airfooter]

Rob, I guess I'm a moron - you have an IDI, the whole 2 fuel pump thing DNA...

Soooo, my suggestion is get (3) 3-way solenoid valves - Frybrid sells hydraforce valves for about $75. These are very reliable electromagnet-operated valves that are easily dissassembled (in place!) and cleaned/repaired if necessary.

The 1rst valve will be before fuel pump/lift pump and will select what fuel tank ya pull from. Use an aluminum VO tank and a Hot Fox heated fuel pick-up. (search Artic Fox...) These pick-ups heat the fuel as it exits tank, you really don't want to heat the whole tank (causes condensation and polymerization/fuel degradation issues in the long run)

The 2nd valve will be after IP/injectors and will select which tank the fuel returns to. Don't use the typical 6-way Pollak switching valves - they don't hold up well in hot VO service and cause cross-contamination of fuels in the tanks (VO in diesel tank is not good!) This is why we use (2) 3-way valves, so we can delay the return valve switching back to diesel tank until after purge.

The 3rd valve will be on the VO return line and will select either return to tank or 'looped return'. The 'looped return' will send fuel back to the supply valve before IP. You need a return to VO tank for purging. When you purge, you'll pull from the diesel tank and return to the VO tank - eliminating VO from the IP and injectors. Also allows removing air from system after filter changes etc. (air is trapped in a 'permanent' loop)

I use a 10mic spin-on fuel filter and base by WIX - about $35 base and $7 filters and heat it using a 3/8" copper 'coolant wrap'. I had a modified soft-sided 6-pack cooler over this to help keep the cold air out/heat in.


I also use Mercedes aux. coolant pump (by Bosch = under $100) to insure good flow thru VO coolant loop. These engines (especially my PSD) are very cold natured and at low RPM's/low load (ie, traffic jam) I would see coolant temps fall dramatically - especially in cooooold weather.

You 100% do not want to share filters with both fuels - have a separate filter for each fuel. #1 - WHEN your VO filter plugs up, you really, really want to switch back to diesel and get off the RR tracks, mmmmkay? #2 - you can't ever get a really good purge when sharing filters, there is an awful lot of mixing goin' on in there. Take a full coke bottle and begin adding water until its clear and see how many gallons it takes!

So heat - heated fuel pick-up, TIH from there to (heated) VO filter, and if its under truck or otherwise not close to the supply valve, run TIH from there to FPHE. Yes, you'll still need a final HE unless you could run your 'looped return' thru TIH all the back to tank. Actually, if ya put VO filter under cab (about 1/2 way to engine), then you should have warm enough VO to be able to filter it and you could tee in the looped return directly after the VO filter. (ya really don't want to loop thru the filter if you can help it - filters will last ALOT longer) What you NEED is 160* PLUS VO before the IP, any less and you're not getting good atomization/combustion. Please don't use vegtherm or other electric heaters - they tend to overheat VO causing more problems than they solve.

I'm sure a picture/diagram of all this would have saved 1000 words, but I don't have the technology...

I used DiPricol Optix gauges, but no longer recommend them - the ISSPRO EV Series gauges are prolly the best, but Autometer makes much more economical gauges. I strongly recommend a fuel pressure gauge just before IP - it may save your IP one day!!!! Any one-wire temp gauge can be wired to several senders using a switch. Extra senders are like $10ea. There are 'controlling' temp gauges (Summit Racing) that have adjustable settings that usually turn fans on/off, but they're around $100. What you want is a normally-open 180* switch. This will close/complete the circuit at 180*. I'd put this in the coolant supply to VO loop (near engine) as long as ya have adequate heat in VO system - either FPHE or looooong looped TIH set-up. Monitor VO temp just before IP.

Here's the Excursion's gauges and VO system switches:


OK, a few words about cross-contamination and blending. Bottom line is the thicker-than-diesel VO will not properly atomize and therefore will not attain complete combustion. This leads to carbon build-up/coking, often at ringland (coolest place in combstion chamber), which ultimately scores cylinder walls and damages valve seals, etc - but often coats the injector tips first furthering poor atomization... Keep in mind, the engine 'runs fine' while all of this is quietly going down! If thats not bad enough, there is the blow-by standard in ALL high compression engines like diesels. Before the engine reaches operating temp, some combustion gasses slip past the rings and enter the crankcase. When this is diesel, it very slightly dilutes the oil, and the soot present turns it BLACK. (now ya know why yer oil turns black so fast!) When this is VO, very bad things happen. The VO will rapidly polymerize in the crankcase environment and as it does, it looses its ability to lubricate stuff like its supposed to.

One more thing before I crawl back under my rock, if you drive much (and you totally WILL when your cheap-fuel vehicle is reliable!!!!! ) you will totally get your money back - I promise. I have met so many people who tried to 'save money' and 1/2 baked a 'conversion' and either damaged IP's/injectors or worse! or ended up spending more in the long run than if they'd just done it right the first time. No exaggeration - I drove 70k miles on my original conversion and never so much as tightened a hose clamp, much less changed/modified anything. Hell, I've saved almost enough now between the 2 trucks to pay for the Excursion AND its VO system!!

feel free to PM me if ya have questions.

[ClassicFordGuy]

Wow, once again, thank you for the great response.

So the reason for not returning the hot vo to the vo tank all the time is because it will heat up the whole tank right?

I was planning on the coolant heated fuel pickup like the hotfox but I was going to make my own, installed a hotfox for a guy but can't justify the price when I can make the same thing.

Never thought about using multiple senders and one guage, thats a great idea.

As for the valves and not sharing filters between vo and diesel, I'm trying to think how I whould achieve this. Right now it goes tank, lift pump, filter, IP. In order to not run vo through my diesel filter I thinking the best way is the move it to the suction side of lift pump just as the VO filter will be. Is that an ok thing to do? If not that than I would need to split the high pressure line comming out of the lift pump and run it around diesel filter then T back in before the IP, that would requir either more valves or inline backflow preventers (same as on your powerstrokes) to avoid backflowing into the other fuel system.

So is it ok to move my diesel filter to the suction side too?

-Rob

[ClassicFordGuy]

Secondary Fuel Filters - FleetFilter Online Store

Here is a wix filter base for $20 Does that look like it is the one?

Also, which filter would you recomend from that list, there is a 6 micron filter for $5.84 part number 33352, does that seem like a good one?

Thanks again for the all the help, you have already saved me a ton of headache.

-Rob

[airfooter]

Returning to tank unnecessarily heats tank (condensation and polymerization issues) and wastes heat that you added from tank to IP. Looping will increase heat to IP significantly - this is the best reason to do it.

Some filters work better on the suction-side of pump than others. I'm not sure how those will perform there, but otherwise the base and filter are adequate for VO. You will want a 'water-block' type filter on the diesel side, but don't waste the money on water-block for VO - it WILL NOT 'block' water or separate water from VO.

You will want as much heat as possible before the VO filter, especially on the suction-side, cold oil will not flow well thru filters.

If you 'make your own' heated pick-up, be aware of what will happen to it when a cold slug of VO slides across the tank and hits it! Coolant in your VO will probably take out an IP before ya know what happened. The Hot Fox is a stout unit and worth the $$ IMHO...

You are quite welcome for the help, although I am certainly no expert (especially non-PSD). I learned most of what little I know from the knowlegable/helpful folks on frybrid forum. I always tease 'don't send money - just set aside a little VO for me for when I get to your neck of the woods!'. I get around the country quite abit for work and since I grew up in central FL, I actually get down there alot. (I have friends/family in Tampa, Orlando, Kissimmee, West Palm, Sebring)

[ClassicFordGuy]

Cool, think I have a pretty good idea of how to put the system together now. Looking forward to it.

I was thinking of using two of those filters on the VO side, think that is necessary or would cause problems?

Next is figuring out how to build my oil processor, I'll head over to the frybrid forums and do some reading up.

-Rob

[airfooter]

No, use just one filter. You want to filter the oil before ya put it in the truck! The filter on truck is just for possible contamination after it gets into truck.

As for pre-filtering, I use a version of the Frybrid still. Basically, I use a water heater with just lower element (wired to 110v) to warm WVO to about 110-120*, then let that settle for 24-48hrs - maybe longer if its really nasty. After draining the crud off the bottom, I use compressed air to push the oil out of WH and thru a 10mic and then 2mic fuel filters into the trucks or clean storage tanks. I also have an A/C vacuum pump which I can use to pull a vacuum in tank for filling and can also use vacuum to assist in dewatering. (search for 'vacuum suckers' - often used for collecting oil) Oh yeah, I use paint strainers or SS basket-type strainers before WH to keep the big stuff out of WH. The longer you let the oil settle BEFORE this, the better. TIME is the best and cheapest filter!! I found even though water filters are cheap, the are not economical if you are actually asking them to filter anything - besides, they are only 'nominal' rated filters, meaning they let much bigger particles thru than their 'rating'. You want 'absolute' rated filters - specifically FUEL filters. Remember, 'water block' filters do nothing to stop or separate water from VO.

I use a Goldenrod-style filter housing (10mic) and a BioTec 2mic spin-on filter. I also used to use the 10mic filter I use on truck, so I could pull a (good) filter off truck before road trip or something without wasting it, but since I seldom see under 10k miles on a VO filter, I just use'em on the truck until they are spent (fuel pressure gauge tells me when - if you put filter on suction-side, a vacuum gauge will tell you filter performance) Here's a couple links for filters and bases:

I like this housing over the Goldenrod because its clear (not 'golden') and VO doesn't degrade it (like the mystery metal in g-rod housings). Tractor Supply has the cheapest elements I've found for it (< $6 ea).
National Spencer Farm Filter

This is the 2mic I use. These seem to last alot longer than cellulose (paper) elements which tend to break down in VO service limiting usable life.
Cim-Tek Bio-Tek Microglass Filter - Particulate Filter (70230)

Here's a filter base for it:
Cim-Tek 3/4" NPT Fuel Filter Adapter

This is a pic of my current 'still' as I was putting it together. I was using a 30mic, then 10mic and 2mic spin-on filters in series - but the 30mic filters cost ALOT more than the goldenrod 10mic, so I decided it was more economical to ditch the 30mic...


You'll also need to remove the anode rod, etc (everything) from WH before using it like this. Here's some of what came out of this one (the white rod was anode, the blue one was cold water fill, also see the check valves/isolators):


I've also been using the $35ish Harbor Freight 1" clear water pumps to move oil. They don't 'self prime', so you'll either need to keep head pressure on them (mount lower than tank) and/or use a check valve/foot valve on end of suction hose to keep oil in hose to pump...

[ClassicFordGuy]

That was my next step, get the truck set up then build the processor. Would never think of putting unfiltered oil in the truck, the one guy I know around here running wvo in my opinion doesn't get it near clean enough. I don't know what is really clean enough, I'm just going by the appearance and his was still a pretty brown.

I actualy have a 60 gal water heater that should still be good. took all the stuff out of it except for the heating elements, I also took the insulation off which was a mistake but I had other plans for the heater at the time.

So when you heat the oil to 110-120 do you keep it at that temp for 48 hours or just get it to 120 then let it sit and cool for 48 hours? Is there any kind of water bubbling or anything to get the salt and other stuff out of the oil? How clear is your oil when you're done?

Thanks,

-Rob