Why use SVO? - Diesel Forum

OMCUSNR · 07-08-2004, 11:49 AM

I've got problems with using SVO/WVO that has not been processed into biodiesel. This is a bit of a personel rant, but the performance (injectors & modifications to vehicles) and POLUTION issuses involved with burning veggatable oils w/out removing the glycerin jerks my chain.

It doesn't take that much to process VO into Bio-D, and its much better for the environment, and doesn't require mucking about with your vehicles to use it. If the answer is because its recycling, process the waste into bio-d.

SVO is not the way to go. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bleh.gif[/img]

Lobstah · 07-08-2004, 01:24 PM

Sorry...but I disagree.

I don't like the idea of handling large quantities of methanol and lye, and having materials like that "hanging around" my home/garage.

As for vehicle mods, that depends on the vehicle. Mine doesn't require mods in the summer, which is when I do most of my driving with that vehicle.

Recycling is STILL being accomplished, and dependence on fossil fuels is being reduced. I've never understood why, if biodiesel is so cheap and easy to produce, it's even MORE expensive than dinodiesel at the pump?

Lob

shoebear · 07-08-2004, 01:33 PM

Because for certain types of usage, it is a lot cheaper and easier than biodiesel. However, it is not for everyone. The ideal SVO user would be someone who makes a living with his/her diesel and runs it all day, lots of miles.

For this type of usage --

WVO:<ul type="square">[*]Significant one-time setup effort and expense.[*]Ongoing: Time and effort to collect and filter WVO. This is generally not much.[/list]Homemade biodiesel::<ul type="square">[*]Significant one-time setup effort and expense.[*]Requires a safe place to make it and to store oil and chemicals. I realize that many folks use their attached garage or even their kitchen, but this is NOT safe, especially when there are kids around.[*]Ongoing: Time and effort to collect WVO. Significant time to make the biodiesel. Problems and effort disposing of glycerol.[/list]Commercial biodiesel:<ul type="square">[*]No initial setup effort and expense.[*]$2.50 - $4.00/gallon.[/list]Concerning the issues you raised:<ul type="square">[*]I have not heard about any injector or fuel system damage caused by SVO/WVO in a vehicular diesel engine with a quality conversion system operated by a person knowlegable in SVO. The only report of damage I've heard was a generator operating at constant speed with unheated SVO.[*]Is the pollution from SVO worse than the pollution from petroleum diesel? If not, it has an automatic advantage because it uses carbon recently taken from the atmosphere.[/list]In any case, WVO usage is self-limiting because of the constaints it places on the way the vehicle is driven and because not too many people want to go grease dumpster diving. Also, there is a pretty limited supply of WVO -- if lots of people started using WVO and/or homemade biodiesel, restaurants would start charging for the oil. If you switch to SVO (virgin oil) the cost advantage disappears.

So why get upset about it? Instead, to me it seems more productive to stay focused on making commercial biodiesel widely available for under $1.50/gal consistently. That's where you'll pick up the masses. And the masses determine the diesel emissions that really matter.

shoebear · 07-08-2004, 01:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've never understood why, if biodiesel is so cheap and easy to produce, it's even MORE expensive than dinodiesel at the pump?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because commercial biodiesel almost always uses virgin oil as its base. Also, biodiesel is still a "boutique" product, and the efficiencies and competition of widespread use have not happened yet in the industry. Also because if biodiesel were priced competitively with petroleum diesel, the price of virgin oil would go through the roof and veggie oil for any purpose would become very scarce. Then you would have ALL KINDS of political backlash, complete with pictures of starving kids in New York, because all their food was being converted to biodiesel.

For biodiesel to work commercially, we must develop a cheap, abundant source of oil that does not compete with food (like algae).

Lobstah · 07-08-2004, 03:57 PM

"Because commercial biodiesel almost always uses virgin oil as its base"

Why? We certainly have adequate filtering technology? Why not offer two grades?

I'm not trying to argue here, in fact I pretty much agree with the points you make, but bio could in fact be cheaper right now, if the people producing it wanted it to be..."boutique" and "no competition" basically boils down to the few commercial producers charging whatever they feel like for the fuel due to lack of competition?

Lob

rockhead55 · 07-08-2004, 06:05 PM

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It doesn't take that much to process VO into Bio-D, and its much better for the environment, and doesn't require mucking about with your vehicles to use it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what source do you have for precise environmental advantages of bioD vs SVO ? I have seen little in the way of detailed scientific research on either. bioD has the opening disadvantage of being made with methanol which is typically sourced from "natural gas" so you're already 20% browner right out of the gate.

SHOW ME THE NUMBERS !

Thanks, Glenn

shoebear · 07-08-2004, 06:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why? We certainly have adequate filtering technology? Why not offer two grades?

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Because the National Biodiesel Board was founded by and for soybean farmers and did a lot of the legwork for getting biodiesel accepted and used by many governmental agencies (the biggest users of bulk biodiesel). They have gotten the governmental agencies to specify "virgin soy biodiesel" and told them why biodiesel made from WVO is bad. Therefore, virgin soy biodiesel is what most manufacturers make, so they can have a share in that market. Two grades is out of the question when the market is still so small.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to argue here, in fact I pretty much agree with the points you make, but bio could in fact be cheaper right now, if the people producing it wanted it to be..."boutique" and "no competition" basically boils down to the few commercial producers charging whatever they feel like for the fuel due to lack of competition?

[/ QUOTE ]
Right, the market isn't big enough for anything different right now. To get economy of scale and price competition, there has to be a big market. But there isn't enough oil available to supply a big market. So until cheap algal oil (or equivalent) is a reality, there will be limited supply and high prices, which in turn will ensure limited demand.

One possible crack in this scenario is private consumers driving demand for WVO-based biodiesel. But this is a new market (compared the the government fleets) and it's buyer beware, with naive buyers getting substandard fuel from unscrupulous or ignorant makers. Unlike government usage, there is no one to check the fuel and ensure that it meets ASTM D-6751. So buyers are getting scared off.

We had a situation like that here with a waste oil disposal company in Denver that decided to make biodiesel. They were charging $3/gallon (high for WVO biodiesel), and delivered substandard fuel that caused a couple of vehicles (at least) to stall out. The guy who ran it is trying again this year. When I talked to him last year, he didn't even know what ASTM D-6751 was . . . never heard of it.

So there are bumps in the road and it will take time for the market to develop.

B1powered · 07-08-2004, 06:30 PM

Here's the basic recipe for making homebrew biodiesel.

http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbt...31&fpart=1

Lobstah · 07-08-2004, 06:52 PM

"To get economy of scale and price competition, there has to be a big market."

Sorry...but I DO disagree with this one. If there's a demand, there's a market. It doesn't have to be a Texaco-sized effort. There are plenty of small bakers out there, small hardware stores, independent restuarants, etc. Size is not the issue.

The fact that it's such a new concept is an issue, but for small, local businesses, there's an opportunity there, and as soon as more people figure it out, we'll see more locally available bio AND filtered WVO.

Just my $.02 [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Lob

BobbySnider · 07-08-2004, 07:19 PM

There is another issue out that I would bet that most of you were not aware of. There is a powerful lobby out there which is against the level of bodiesel production that we would like to see. They are the environmentalists. These are the same people who are doing everything in their power to prevent drilling for oil. It is their belief that the farming required to produce the oil stock is bad for the earth.

I brought this point up on the gtl thread on this forum. The next response was interesting.

As much as we want this product more readily available, there is a powerful lobby doing everything that they can to prevent it. Call you congressman and start informing them. <font color="blue"> </font>

robrocketanski · 07-08-2004, 07:33 PM

farming can, and in many cases does, pollute. that is not refutable. the amount it pollutes is. see his link [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

OMCUSNR · 07-08-2004, 07:35 PM

Shoebear,

As usual a good reasoned respones to my emotional outburst. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I STILL don't like using SVO vs Bio. I'd like to see the SVO/WVO get processed into bio, its just a cleaner fuel. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Any way, some good thoughts all here.

shoebear · 07-08-2004, 08:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"To get economy of scale and price competition, there has to be a big market."

Sorry...but I DO disagree with this one. If there's a demand, there's a market. It doesn't have to be a Texaco-sized effort. There are plenty of small bakers out there, small hardware stores, independent restuarants, etc. Size is not the issue.

[/ QUOTE ]
How many of the independant hardware stores survive when WalMart moves in next door and Home Depot moves next door on the other side? A few do, and the ones that do offer something extra. Small bakers survive because there is an art to baking and some people will pay more for the best. But they generally can't compete with the price of generic white bread at Monster Mercantile.

Biodiesel is fuel, not art. It's a commodity, and price is the main point. As long as it meets D-6751 (or the updated prevailing standard of the day), it doesn't much matter if it is made from "the finest extra-virgin olive oil with subtle herbs and spices", or used french-fry grease. So it's not like bread or hardware, where discerning buyers will pay more for just the right touch. Most diesel users will use it only if it doesn't cost more than dinodiesel.

There can definitely be competition in today's market, but not a lot. The bigger the market, the more money is available to fund suppliers, and the more interest there will be from big business. Big business can afford to build state-of-the-art continuous-process plants -- but they can't right now, because there is not enough oil for that kind of operation. IF cheap veggie oil becomes available in the next few years, we may see this kind of investment. Then we can get consistent "generic white bread" biodiesel at very competitive prices.

shoebear · 07-08-2004, 08:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There is another issue out that I would bet that most of you were not aware of. There is a powerful lobby out there which is against the level of bodiesel production that we would like to see. They are the environmentalists. These are the same people who are doing everything in their power to prevent drilling for oil. It is their belief that the farming required to produce the oil stock is bad for the earth.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, this distresses to me also. But we'd better drop this subject lest the thread be locked or deleted by a moderator because of political talk.

shoebear · 07-08-2004, 08:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
farming can, and in many cases does, pollute. that is not refutable. the amount it pollutes is. see his link [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, but the good thing about growing algae is that it can help clean up some of the farm pollution by using up fertilizer runoff and agricultural wastes. I would like to see chicken and hog farms with algae ponds built into them. Harvest the oil for biodiesel, feed the leftover algae pulp back to the animals. Hmmm, that may not meet USDA feed standards? But the pulp could at least be used to feed a thermal depolymerization plant? Anyway, I think algae can help the environment instead of hurting it.