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Bio-Diesel and Alternative Fuels Discussion of biodiesel (homegrown or store bought) and other alternative fuels for diesel-powered vehicles.

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Old 04-09-2008, 11:20 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Wmo Vs Wvo

Hi everybody, back on after a short absence.I ran biodiesel for a year until i didn,t wash well enough, new fuel tank etc. I'm now having a greasecar system installed in my 2000 e-350. I was going to burn wvo until i started to read about wmo. I have access to the used motor oil a lot easier than the used veg oil. can anybody give me their feedback. I also have a 2006 f-250 with lots of warranty and was wondering if anybody is burning wmo oil in a 6.0 engine. thanks Kenny
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Old 04-09-2008, 12:18 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I dont have any experience with WMO but I am running a WVO/ULSD blend in my 05 6.0. I am filtering down to 5 microns, de watering, settling, and refiltering the WVO before i blend it with ULSD. Luckily my source uses good oil and not shortening, fry clean foods, and change their oil often. It means alot less risk/work on my part. My truck seems to like it. It runs alot smoother and quieter on the blend as well as saves me about 1.50-2.00 per gallon on fuel costs.
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Old 04-10-2008, 12:15 PM   #3 (permalink)
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How are you going to remove the heavy metas from the wmo?
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Old 04-11-2008, 09:09 AM   #4 (permalink)
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What types of heavy metals are in WMO? What are there effects when used as a fuel blend?
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Old 04-11-2008, 02:33 PM   #5 (permalink)
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There is another thread (several pages long) recently discussing WMO as a fuel.

In a nutshell, its not a good idea. It is FAR from a 'clean' fuel and the additives, etc are not designed for combustion - ATF and hydraulic fluid are worse. BUT, just like people who smoke cigarettes while pumping gasoline - it doesn't cause everyone a problem.

The metals are the result of normal wear in an engine. I believe even these particles that are smaller than 10 or 5 microns can eventually damage injectors and cylinder walls/rings, etc. I read a study awhile back that indicated the damage caused in hydraulic systems is primarily caused by particles less than 1 micron.

I too have nearly unlimited resources for WMO. After TONS of reading on the subject, I decided it was a bad idea. I was considering blending w/WVO and burning in my converted truck, btw. Now, I will be using the WMO only to heat my home and shop.

WVO makes a great, clean burning fuel as long as you get it hot enough to properly atomize thru the injectors. In a 'deadheaded' PSD, I think 150*F is a good target and hotter is better.

As far as your GC 'kit' goes, I recommend you remove the copper HE from the tank before you even use it. Replace it w/aluminum or plan to regularly clean chicken-skin (polymerization) from your tank and expect short filter life. Also, add a fuel pressure gauge and fuel temp gauge as minimum gauges. Don't burn VO less than 150* and don't let fuel pressure get below 45 psi under load. Does your 'kit' share pumps and filters for diesel and VO?

For anyone else considering GC - you can collect the identical (and better) components for about 1/4 of what the 'kit' costs. If you could buy the Vegistroke or Frybrid peices, you will have trouble buying them one-at-a-time and saving much if any money. Yeah, the V3 is expensive - but thats what OE quality components are worth. Just my (unsolicited) $0.02...
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Choose wisely. Or PLEASE post pics of the carnage!!!

2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges on pillar - EGT, Boost, Fuel Press., HPO Press. - No Muffler, AIH delete, SB Con OFE, AC code injctrs (160cc), T4/S366 turbo. Vegistroke-inspired WVO system w/180,000 trouble-free miles! BTS tunes, 203 t-stat w/billet housing, '07 grill/lites and big, bad front bumper!

2000 Excursion 4x4 Limited - BTS trans and tunes, AIS, Frybrid/V3 SVO conversion 120k VO miles - wrecked 4/13, RIP...

That's 300k miles on SVO between them!

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Old 04-11-2008, 08:03 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Yes PLEASE go back and read other posts.... Ive had Great success with wmo as have many others. Lots of naysayers that have never tried wmo but some have and just dont like the idea of it.
Its been done a lot longer than wvo and most that do it just dont talk about it.
Make an educated choice to either do or not do it.
I just find it strange that some wvo users are so deathly afraid of wmo. Im just too lazy to do wvo myself although ive helped frinds since 1984 use wvo.
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Old 04-11-2008, 10:32 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I think that wmo might be fine for the older 7.3, and the 6.9's along with the 5.9 in the Dodges I wouldn't run it in a 6.0 with their history of problems.

Jim
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Old 04-12-2008, 10:08 AM   #8 (permalink)
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If they are not designed for combustion what is the difference between burning it as fuel and burning it to heat your home and shop?

Quote:
Originally Posted by airfooter View Post
There is another thread (several pages long) recently discussing WMO as a fuel.

In a nutshell, its not a good idea. It is FAR from a 'clean' fuel and the additives, etc are not designed for combustion - ATF and hydraulic fluid are worse. BUT, just like people who smoke cigarettes while pumping gasoline - it doesn't cause everyone a problem.

The metals are the result of normal wear in an engine. I believe even these particles that are smaller than 10 or 5 microns can eventually damage injectors and cylinder walls/rings, etc. I read a study awhile back that indicated the damage caused in hydraulic systems is primarily caused by particles less than 1 micron.

I too have nearly unlimited resources for WMO. After TONS of reading on the subject, I decided it was a bad idea. I was considering blending w/WVO and burning in my converted truck, btw. Now, I will be using the WMO only to heat my home and shop.

WVO makes a great, clean burning fuel as long as you get it hot enough to properly atomize thru the injectors. In a 'deadheaded' PSD, I think 150*F is a good target and hotter is better.

As far as your GC 'kit' goes, I recommend you remove the copper HE from the tank before you even use it. Replace it w/aluminum or plan to regularly clean chicken-skin (polymerization) from your tank and expect short filter life. Also, add a fuel pressure gauge and fuel temp gauge as minimum gauges. Don't burn VO less than 150* and don't let fuel pressure get below 45 psi under load. Does your 'kit' share pumps and filters for diesel and VO?

For anyone else considering GC - you can collect the identical (and better) components for about 1/4 of what the 'kit' costs. If you could buy the Vegistroke or Frybrid peices, you will have trouble buying them one-at-a-time and saving much if any money. Yeah, the V3 is expensive - but thats what OE quality components are worth. Just my (unsolicited) $0.02...
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Old 04-12-2008, 12:33 PM   #9 (permalink)
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If they are not designed for combustion what is the difference between burning it as fuel and burning it to heat your home and shop?
The better WMO heaters/boilers for shop heat have easy access to the burner assembly. This is because the burner assemblies have to be cleaned regularly to remove the deposits that result from incomplete combustion.

I guess I'm a naysayer - but thats probably because my educated decision was based on MONTHS of dedicated research on the subject. I refuse to just take some guy on the internet's advice.

They are correct however - WMO has been 'blended' w/diesel for a long, long time. But, these over-the-road trucks and heavy equipment are a bit different than our trucks and they would dump a quart or 2 into 100 gals of diesel. It was an effective way to get rid of WMO - not a SUBSTITUTE for fuel.

I think you'll find a history of people who 'don't talk about it' because they may have spent months convincing others to do the same thing on the internet. When their truck blows up - they seldom come back to tell the followers they f-ed up. This has become quite common in the WVO world, and the junkyards are filling up as a result of broadly 'published' BAD ADVICE.

Choose wisely my friends. I have nothing to gain by discouraging you. I just hate to see these posts go on and on and never have a 'voice of reason'.
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Choose wisely. Or PLEASE post pics of the carnage!!!

2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges on pillar - EGT, Boost, Fuel Press., HPO Press. - No Muffler, AIH delete, SB Con OFE, AC code injctrs (160cc), T4/S366 turbo. Vegistroke-inspired WVO system w/180,000 trouble-free miles! BTS tunes, 203 t-stat w/billet housing, '07 grill/lites and big, bad front bumper!

2000 Excursion 4x4 Limited - BTS trans and tunes, AIS, Frybrid/V3 SVO conversion 120k VO miles - wrecked 4/13, RIP...

That's 300k miles on SVO between them!

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Old 04-13-2008, 06:38 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Hmmm months of research?
Farmers and contractors have used wmo as a blended fuel for many years. Not just a supplement, well maybe if you consider 50/50 to be a supplement. Other countries use what they can get their hands on and their machines continue to operate.
Internet resources as as accurate as the poster. Some are not accurate at all. Many however are postings of experiential data... experiential meaning they tried it and shared the results. Not trying to convince anyone just sharing...like we are doing here. Sharing information. If you have scientific research, Airfooter, we are all ears. Please enlighten us. WVO use/ results is experiential as well. You are correct in your statement of the 150 degree heating. Research? or just published info in someones kit literature.
Dont think anyone is hiding that there are risks to trying any fuel other than what comes out of the pump. Water or contaminents are a risk with ANY fuel.
Your heavy metal concerns with hydraulics seems a bit far fetched. Ask any combustion engineer... in a diesel, if it gets past the injector tip its very likely combusted. Whats left goes back in the return lines.
The trace amounts you MAY be refering to ARE evidenced in waste oil heaters. but they have much lower combustion temperatures and are not in compression. They also meet EPA standards. Commercial waste oil heaters that is.
One last comment on the research part you keep bringing up. Research usually follows techniques or innovations to see if they are accurate. Prior to that however the only evidence is from word of mouth from users/participants.
I have been a researcher/publisher/presenter of information in a past career. Share some of your documented concerns or helpful tips so we can all benefit. I like wvo but I use some wvo and lots of wmo that is prepared before it hits the tank.
As we discussed in another thread... my concerns are environmental, and then financial with fuel costs going up. I have talked to a few people that have been doing this for many years and they have yet to loose an engine as you suggest because of fuel related issues. Maybe those people are too embarrassed to admit it but i really doubt it.
Share the actual info-- just the highlights...please.
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1984 300SD single tank mix doing great

1998 Mountaineer FOR SALE

1994 Bronco w/ 1995 Lightning motor..wa hooo
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Old 04-13-2008, 06:55 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
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They are correct however - WMO has been 'blended' w/diesel for a long, long time. But, these over-the-road trucks and heavy equipment are a bit different than our trucks and they would dump a quart or 2 into 100 gals of diesel. It was an effective way to get rid of WMO - not a SUBSTITUTE for fuel.
Actually, next time you see a tanker crossing the ocean, that's not diesel they're burning...

WMO has a higher enerfy density than diesel. You are correct, it wasn't designed as fuel. But, then again, is used cooking oil?

I have nothing to gain as well, but it WMO intrinsically shares many of the same properties as diesel, and with the right care and system, can be burned as fuel, just as WVO may be burned as fuel. I have heard of far more people damaging their cars using WVO for fuel with a poorly designed WVO system. I'm sure someone, somewhere has damaged his truck using WMO, but this is a poor way of deciding if it's good or bad. If we use the same criteria to judge WVO vs WMO, we shouldn't be using either.
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Old 04-14-2008, 12:55 PM   #12 (permalink)
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OK friends, we can definitely agree to disagree.

I wish I had the time and patience to replicate all the reading I did on this subject. I know it sounds funny that I did 'months' of research, but I had an unfortunate accident that left me literally in bed for several weeks and out of work for over a year. Believe me - I had some time to read. I'm sure anyone who looks can find what I did. Mostly what I found is that the people who used to post here regularly got tired of answering the same questions over and over again and being discredited and blasted by people who did not know what they were talking about. Eventually, they quit posting on the subject (as I will - NOW).

As for the tankers - thats funny right there! Those ships as well as power plants and many LARGE boilers burn No. 6 oil, aka 'Bunker C fuel'. This is a very thick petroleum product that is slightly lighter than asphalt. Again, like the WMO heaters, they have a very specific design to be able to use this fuel. To your credit, I have worked at a facility that takes WMO and 're-refines' it to be blended w/No. 6 oil - to be used in applications that burn the No. 6 oil.
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Choose wisely. Or PLEASE post pics of the carnage!!!

2001 F-350, DRW, 4x4, XLT Crew Cab, flat bed, 7.3, 6 spd, Dipricol Optix gauges on pillar - EGT, Boost, Fuel Press., HPO Press. - No Muffler, AIH delete, SB Con OFE, AC code injctrs (160cc), T4/S366 turbo. Vegistroke-inspired WVO system w/180,000 trouble-free miles! BTS tunes, 203 t-stat w/billet housing, '07 grill/lites and big, bad front bumper!

2000 Excursion 4x4 Limited - BTS trans and tunes, AIS, Frybrid/V3 SVO conversion 120k VO miles - wrecked 4/13, RIP...

That's 300k miles on SVO between them!

veggiegarage.com autorized installer
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Old 04-14-2008, 03:45 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Didn't mean to wear you out
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Old 11-03-2012, 05:48 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airfooter View Post
The better WMO heaters/boilers for shop heat have easy access to the burner assembly. This is because the burner assemblies have to be cleaned regularly to remove the deposits that result from incomplete combustion.

I guess I'm a naysayer - but thats probably because my educated decision was based on MONTHS of dedicated research on the subject. I refuse to just take some guy on the internet's advice.

They are correct however - WMO has been 'blended' w/diesel for a long, long time. But, these over-the-road trucks and heavy equipment are a bit different than our trucks and they would dump a quart or 2 into 100 gals of diesel. It was an effective way to get rid of WMO - not a SUBSTITUTE for fuel.

I think you'll find a history of people who 'don't talk about it' because they may have spent months convincing others to do the same thing on the internet. When their truck blows up - they seldom come back to tell the followers they f-ed up. This has become quite common in the WVO world, and the junkyards are filling up as a result of broadly 'published' BAD ADVICE.

Choose wisely my friends. I have nothing to gain by discouraging you. I just hate to see these posts go on and on and never have a 'voice of reason'.
your truck wont "blow up" lol thats a cute assumption. in my research ive read a couple horror stories and both had to replace injectors and injector pump. what did they do wrong you are wondering? they did not filter the wmo prior to putting it in the truck. one in particular gave milage numbers 40,000 miles with a 20-30% blend (unfiltered wmo) and it toasted the injectors and IP. He then went on to explain his filter setup, down to 2 micron like most do, and claims to have had no problems so far after 55,000 miles. Its a great way to fuel your diesel but you MUST filter down to remove wear metals. you just seem scared to me. diesels will burn any type of flamable liquid lol. thats what they were originally designed for and is exactally what the military does with their diesels.if it burns its fuel. enough of my rant your post kinda started me going . too many people on here think they know a lot about this stuff but have not tried it themselves or hears one horror story as mentioned above and start talking down about wmo. prople make mistakes and it costs them. if you do it right you will have no problems. im done and jumping off the box.
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Old 11-03-2012, 08:24 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertwoodling View Post
How are you going to remove the heavy metas from the wmo?
Why bother?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jski55 View Post
Yes PLEASE go back and read other posts.... Ive had Great success with wmo as have many others. Lots of naysayers that have never tried wmo but some have and just dont like the idea of it.
Its been done a lot longer than wvo and most that do it just dont talk about it.
Make an educated choice to either do or not do it.
I just find it strange that some wvo users are so deathly afraid of wmo. Im just too lazy to do wvo myself although ive helped frinds since 1984 use wvo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugman View Post
I think that wmo might be fine for the older 7.3, and the 6.9's along with the 5.9 in the Dodges I wouldn't run it in a 6.0 with their history of problems.

Jim
Most engine using WMO are 6.9 and 7.3 IDIs, 5.9 Cummins and 7.3 Powerstrokes. Most Class 8 engines run well on it up to only 10%.

My IDI will run on damn near anything

I have 1200 gallons of WMO, 400 WVO, 200 ATF, and 300 gallons of fuel oil which will be mixed with WMO and used for my shop heater. I'm trying to find a source for hydraulic fluid for experimentation

I'm ready just in case we don't get a new president next week
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