6.0L Power Stroke Engine and DrivetrainDiscussion of the 6.0L Power Stroke diesel engine and drivetrain in the 2003-Up Super Duties and Excursions. No gas engine discussion allowed except on transmissions and drivetrain that pertain to all models. Please confine discussion of topics in this forum to those items that are specific to the 6.0L Power Stroke engine.
When was the truck apart last and who did it? That is a foreign object, it's real easy to drop something down the intake ports on the cylinder heads. My best guess is whoever had the intake manifold off (or EGR valve, ect) dropped a bolt down there. If the object finds the right spot it can get stuck in the intake manifold for a while, work it's way to the intake valves where it gets worn down until it's small enough to fit past the valves and into the cylinder. Ford is denying warranty coverage because a Ford part did not fail. You said the dealer fired the last tech for incompetence, well there you go. It's the dealer's responsibility (or whoever had it apart last) to fix it.
No comment on the possibility of installing the wrong glow plug?
When was the truck apart last and who did it? That is a foreign object, it's real easy to drop something down the intake ports on the cylinder heads. My best guess is whoever had the intake manifold off (or EGR valve, ect) dropped a bolt down there. If the object finds the right spot it can get stuck in the intake manifold for a while, work it's way to the intake valves where it gets worn down until it's small enough to fit past the valves and into the cylinder. Ford is denying warranty coverage because a Ford part did not fail. You said the dealer fired the last tech for incompetence, well there you go. It's the dealer's responsibility (or whoever had it apart last) to fix it.
That makes a lot of sense as well. I would say letter to Ford with the pictures as well as the fact that the Tech was fired for cause. You may still need the attorney as well though. I have no idea how much control Ford has over it's dealerships in that regard. If you could prove damages stemming from your truck being in their shop for a month.... that has to be worth something.
On a separate note I can somewhat understand Ford's stance on this one but I do feel that protecting their truck customer would be in their best interest here. There has to be somebody at Ford that controls the dealership to customer complaints probably different from warranty claims.... I'd want to talk to that guy.
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2007 F350 XLT 4x4 SC 6.0 PSD No Mods *Traded*
2011 F250 XLT/FX4 4X4 CC 6.7L PSD
I looked at pictures of 6.0L injectors and the indentation on the piston does not look like it's tip. But there are no great images of glow plugs on the net for 6.0L glowplugs.
The discussion of the glow plug situation is a good possibility. I'd go to another dealer's parts department and ask if you can look at the early and late glow plugs and see if they look like the indentation.
You stated the dealer is not allowed to disassemble any further, but if it is glow plug tip, they already have the head off on the effected cylinder. Just get them to show you the head and look to see if it's there.
They would stock both versions of the glow plugs.
Lets say it turns out that it is the glow plug. Here is where I think it may get sticky. If the dealer's parts guy gave the now gone mechanic the wrong glow plug, it's probably not a Ford Corporate issue, it's a dealer issue. Ford corporate is not going to want to pay for the error.
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Jack
Former Vehicle Test Manager - Friction Products
03 F350SC 4x4 6.0 Auto 5/30/03
Truck Modifications below in Pictorials on Facebook. Search in Google - Facebook TooManyToys
I looked at pictures of 6.0L injectors and the indentation on the piston does not look like it's tip. But there are no great images of glow plugs on the net for 6.0L glowplugs.
The discussion of the glow plug situation is a good possibility. I'd go to another dealer's parts department and ask if you can look at the early and late glow plugs and see if they look like the indentation.
You stated the dealer is not allowed to disassemble any further, but if it is glow plug tip, they already have the head off on the effected cylinder. Just get them to show you the head and look to see if it's there.
They would stock both versions of the glow plugs.
Lets say it turns out that it is the glow plug. Here is where I think it may get sticky. If the dealer's parts guy gave the now gone mechanic the wrong glow plug, it's probably not a Ford Corporate issue, it's a dealer issue. Ford corporate is not going to want to pay for the error.
Hi Jack, thanks for the comments. If I understand you correctly, the Ford MoCo doesn't stand behind the techs if they make a mistake on a warranty repair?
In my day, we never had a dividing line like that, but it would explain a lot of this finger pointing back and forth, and the somewhat "haunted" look and fast talking of the dealers shop foreman and service manager.
Legally speaking, it'd be interesting to know how courts have treated warranty victims (like me) when awarding damages from a dealer who's (for example) no longer in business or when a customer gets fed up and goes to different dealer who proclaims the previous job "botched."
It certainly could explain the confusion and wasted time I've experienced on this problem, if FoMoCo no longer warranties the warranty repairs, but tried to get the dealer to pay after the first couple of times!
No comment on the possibility of installing the wrong glow plug?
Hi Bismic, the glow plug that was installed was part #4C3Z 12A342 AA according to my RO. I couldn't find any indication if this the correct-length part, but the build date of my 6.0L truck was October '04.
One potential problem with this (if it is the wrong GP for the older style piston) is that the RO says that it was replaced on cyl #2. If the 6.0l are numbered even (driver) and odd (passenger), the damage is on #4 I think. I might have to go down and take more pictures.
Does anyone know if the GP part number, tip length above is too long for my build date?
The discussion of the glow plug situation is a good possibility. I'd go to another dealer's parts department and ask if you can look at the early and late glow plugs and see if they look like the indentation.
One other thing, Jack.....I thought about what you said above, and I found a picture here:
It doesn't look like my piston indentations, unless you think about what might be inside those proboscises.
I haven't ever taken one apart, but it has to be a resistive wire/metal of some kind and those are usually very malleable and soft. I wonder if one of those could be too long, get bent over and after 3k miles, break off and sit around in the combustion chamber, unable to get past the exhaust valve.
Even more interesting, I'll bet there's a long piece of wire in those GP bodies.....
That makes a lot of sense as well. I would say letter to Ford with the pictures as well as the fact that the Tech was fired for cause. You may still need the attorney as well though. I have no idea how much control Ford has over it's dealerships in that regard. If you could prove damages stemming from your truck being in their shop for a month.... that has to be worth something.
On a separate note I can somewhat understand Ford's stance on this one but I do feel that protecting their truck customer would be in their best interest here. There has to be somebody at Ford that controls the dealership to customer complaints probably different from warranty claims.... I'd want to talk to that guy.
Hi Johnny, I think this separation between church and state (dealership and FoMoCo) is part of the problem. They don't seem too interested when I'm talking about the Tech incompetence, and you'd think (since it's their money paying for warranty repairs) that they'd be all over the dealer quality issues.
That said, I DO want "to talk to that guy." But in my case, I'd be happy to talk to ANY guy who's Ford company and has technical knowledge and can make decisions. I'm not picky at this point!
If I understand you correctly, the Ford MoCo doesn't stand behind the techs if they make a mistake on a warranty repair?
I am sure through out this whole process you will hear the phrase, "Each dealer is independently owned and operated". This does in fact mean it is between you and the dealer.
I've not worked within the confines of the dealer / corporate environment but in the supplier side, so my comments don't come from first hand knowledge. But one of my long term employees had been a service manager for GM for many years so I got to hear a lot of stories.
I can't view the image you posted. The part number you posted is for the '04 and later motors, but I would still be looking at the glow plug end on that cylinder. I believe you stated you never had a wrench on this motor so this critter had to come from somewhere under the engine compartment. As I think you were trying to do, hopefully the Ford mechanics that frequent here may recognize what that part looks like if it's not the GP.
From what I heard and read over the years, if this cause is within the dealership confines FMC may not involve itself and rely on the dealers insurance. Which brings up a bad situation if the dealer is not a stand up dealer. The worst case situation would be that you would need to pay for this and then legally go after the dealer. Unfortunately, in this situation legal guidance would be critical in the early stage so evidence is intact. And the attorneys comments may be to seize the entire existing motor for evidence and acquire a replacement. Not cheap. Sorry to laying out a bleak picture. And yet I've also heard where FMC has bit the bullet.
However, a legal rep early in the game may also sway a reluctant dealership to do the right thing. Sometimes you just have to hammer that rotor off the hub .....
__________________
Jack
Former Vehicle Test Manager - Friction Products
03 F350SC 4x4 6.0 Auto 5/30/03
Truck Modifications below in Pictorials on Facebook. Search in Google - Facebook TooManyToys
I've not worked within the confines of the dealer / corporate environment but in the supplier side, so my comments don't come from first hand knowledge. But one of my long term employees had been a service manager for GM for many years so I got to hear a lot of stories.
I can't view the image you posted. The part number you posted is for the '04 and later motors, but I would still be looking at the glow plug end on that cylinder. I believe you stated you never had a wrench on this motor so this critter had to come from somewhere under the engine compartment. As I think you were trying to do, hopefully the Ford mechanics that frequent here may recognize what that part looks like if it's not the GP.
From what I heard and read over the years, if this cause is within the dealership confines FMC may not involve itself and rely on the dealers insurance. Which brings up a bad situation if the dealer is not a stand up dealer. The worst case situation would be that you would need to pay for this and then legally go after the dealer. Unfortunately, in this situation legal guidance would be critical in the early stage so evidence is intact. And the attorneys comments may be to seize the entire existing motor for evidence and acquire a replacement. Not cheap. Sorry to laying out a bleak picture. And yet I've also heard where FMC has bit the bullet.
However, a legal rep early in the game may also sway a reluctant dealership to do the right thing. Sometimes you just have to hammer that rotor off the hub .....
Hi Jack, I fixed the image (still learning here) and it should show up now.
Just to restate the Ford drama timeline....
It's been 18 months from the first EGR cooler replacement to now, and the current breakdown showed EGR codes
It's been 11, 000 miles total, for the FOUR cooling system episodes to unwind.
THREE of the 4 cooling system episodes involved the EGR/EGR cooler (and the 4th was the cracked overflow tank)
The only difference between the CURRENT breakdown and the previous 2 IDENTICAL SYMPTOMS breakdown, is the presence of top end damage on one cylinder and low compression on an opposing cylinder. (which I've been claiming to be head gasket leakage the entire time since day ONE)
So the puzzling part is: why loose metal this time, AT THE SAME EXACT TIME as the EGR symptoms??
"multiple problems" is not that unusual, but SIMULTANEOUS unrelated multiple problems is very unusual in my experience, anyway.
I am sure through out this whole process you will hear the phrase, "Each dealer is independently owned and operated". This does in fact mean it is between you and the dealer.
Well, why was it between me and Ford the first 3 times then? And why not now?
(I'm not disagreeing, just thinking out loud.)
Actually, the answer is money, like always, but it's puzzling to be a Ford customer right now. You'd THINK that the dealer would be trying to talk Ford into finding a solution, but they seem to be on the same "side" as Ford and denying that the tech made any mistakes, even though they fired him this year. And they "live and die" by the warranty authorization that appears and disappears on their shop computer, without any apparent way to ask why or even discuss it with the Ford decision maker.
Feels like an old episode of Twilight Zone...
One other thing Rock Doctor, my WARRANTY is with Ford and although they've tried cloud the issue, it's still a CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATION, not a "suggestion."....lol
In 2004 the design of the piston changed. This required the installation of a shorter glow plug by 1.2 mm. If the longer glow plugs are installed into an engine with updated pistons, glow plug to piston contact will result, ending in potential catostrophic engine failure.
Look it up and post the part number if a glow plug was replaced (and in which cylinder).
WHERE YOU GETTING ANY CODES IF THE GLOW PLUG WAS DAMAGED IT WOULD THROW A CODE AND SHOW WHICH GLOW PLUG WAS BAD MINE DOES
THIS WHOLE POST SOUNDS FISHY WITH FORD I WOULD HAVE A ATTORNEY WRITE A LETTER TO FORD AND ADDRESS IT TO CEO OF FORD KEEP ALL PAPER WORK AND DOCUMENT EVERYTHING HANG IN THERE AND BE PERSISTANT I THINK THEY WILL EVENTUALLY HAVE TO FIX IT
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2005 F350 XL REGULAR CAB 6.0 11 FOOT SERVICE BOX DRW STOCK 212,347 ON THE CLOCK
1997 34.5 FLEETWOOD AVION 5TH WHEEL
2003 F350 XLT CREW CAB 7.3 STOCK DRW 85,000 on the clock
JOHN 3:16
I don't think many of the Ford Techs are going to jump in here cause they don't want to be quoted in their opinions.
Almost sounds like FMC is pointing the finger at the dealer, and the dealer isn't' telling you its their fault.
I have to agree with others, its time to contact legal help, lawyer, BBB, someone. There are lawyers that specialize in lemons, try one of those first. At least they are familiar with working with the auto industry.
Hi Jack, I fixed the image (still learning here) and it should show up now.
Just to restate the Ford drama timeline....
It's been 18 months from the first EGR cooler replacement to now, and the current breakdown showed EGR codes
It's been 11, 000 miles total, for the FOUR cooling system episodes to unwind.
THREE of the 4 cooling system episodes involved the EGR/EGR cooler (and the 4th was the cracked overflow tank)
The only difference between the CURRENT breakdown and the previous 2 IDENTICAL SYMPTOMS breakdown, is the presence of top end damage on one cylinder and low compression on an opposing cylinder. (which I've been claiming to be head gasket leakage the entire time since day ONE)
So the puzzling part is: why loose metal this time, AT THE SAME EXACT TIME as the EGR symptoms??
"multiple problems" is not that unusual, but SIMULTANEOUS unrelated multiple problems is very unusual in my experience, anyway.
Anyway, that's my thought process for today.
THEY SHOULD HAVE LOOKED AT YOU OIL COOLER ON THE FIRST EGR COOLER A PLUGGED OIL COOLER WILL CAUSE MULTIPLE EGR COOLER FAILURES
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2005 F350 XL REGULAR CAB 6.0 11 FOOT SERVICE BOX DRW STOCK 212,347 ON THE CLOCK
1997 34.5 FLEETWOOD AVION 5TH WHEEL
2003 F350 XLT CREW CAB 7.3 STOCK DRW 85,000 on the clock
JOHN 3:16
I am sure through out this whole process you will hear the phrase, "Each dealer is independently owned and operated". This does in fact mean it is between you and the dealer.
Exactly. In Ford Motor Company's eyes, the dealer obviously messed up, it's the dealers obligation to fix it. If the dealer dosen't want to fix it, then that's between the owner of the vehicle and the dealer. What the dealer is doing is a real chicken s$%@^ move. It's called the cost of doing business. Absorb the costs, learn from the mistake, and move on. I've had similar situations where I've put short blocks and a cylinder head for this same problem that other dealers caused by dropping a bolt down the intake. It blows me away that some dealers will not accept responsibilty. As for the glow plug issue, the 03' is a tad bit longer than a late 04'. The part number billed out is the right one for that build date. From what I can tell in those pictues, the object is large, it would have to be the whole tip that broke off. Try to get a look at all the parts that came off the engine.
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I'm a mod friendly Ford Diesel Technician located in Sacramento California area.
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