Lack of towing power - Page 6 - Diesel Forum

kraftchick · 11-11-2009, 08:42 AM

Teamroper....thanks for the feedback! I had asked early on in this thread if a torque converter were not working properly, would it feel like a slipping clutch....don't recall exactly what the answers were, but I think it were "not necessarily". With everything I've been through with this issue, one thing that I continue to stress is the general feeling of what is going on. This morning I drove the truck to work....on back country roads doing the speed limit, any time that I wanted to speed up, I have to give it so much throttle just to get it to respond in forward acceleration. This is the exact thing that I did NOT notice having to do when driving other stock F250's. I will admit that I have not taken the truck to anyone yet and had them test fuel pressure from the bowl to the intake...I guess that is necessary to rule it out. If that were done and the pressure was what it is supposed to be....would you then consider the issue may be with the torque converter not transferring the power to the transmission?

kraftchick · 11-11-2009, 03:15 PM

Teamroper....I have to concede to your opinion. At lunch today, I stopped by a transmission shop and talked to them about it. The lead tech came with me and took a drive in the truck. He agrees that the torque converter/torqshift transmission seems to be working as it should and in his description of what he "felt" was that the engine just wasn't producing enough power, that it was sluggish untill fully boosted (25 psi). His interpretation that it may be fuel delivery related or even engine timing being off. So, based on your opinion and his testing/etc., I am ruling out the torque converter/transmission as being the issue. Guess I'll have to bite the bullet and get the fuel pressure checked.

misterc · 11-11-2009, 04:42 PM

I have been following this thread for a while and may have an idea of what you might have checked.
First off ,let me tell you about my experience. I have a 2004 F350 crew cab long bed dually. 3.73 rear gear. I bought it to tow. I bought it from a dealership's truck rental fleet with 3800 miles on it. So it was basically a new truck. It had power. I pulled a lot of weight with it. Just my empty equipment trailer weighs 5800 lbs. and I have had some serious weight on it. Still plenty of power. Spool ahead a couple of years. I let the truck sit for several weeks and the turbo vanes bound up with rust. It would overboost when towing or accelerating hard. I didn't pick up on this until it started blowing off the CAC hose at the turbo. I then put a boost guage on it to see what boost pressures were. This turbo only had 1600 miles on it before I let it sit. Anyway, I was back at my second house for a while in the city where I bought the truck and decided to take it to the dealer for a turbo replacement. Before I even took the truck in I made sure that they would not flash the truck. they said that they wouldn't flash the truck so i took it in.
The tech said that it was not overboosting. He said that it was underboosting. P0299 code. Actually there is no overboost code. the P0299 should be boost level outside of parameters instead of underboost. They were not going to do anything about it. They did change the MAP sensor. I picked up the truck and it sounded different and felt different. So I loaded up the truck and trailer and headed out of town. Immediately I felt a huge difference in power. It felt like I was towing into a 30-40mph headwind. I started looking for flagpoles and saw that there was no wind. I even pulled over and felt the trailer brakes for heat. I got to a point where I needed to accelerate and it overboosted to 40 psi again and sneezed back through the turbo when I snapped out of the throttle. I turned around and headed back.
I made an appointment and took the truck back. The tech still said it was not overboosting. After several days the service manager authorized the tech to data log the truck with the trailer attached. He came back with the rig and said underboost again and they did change out the turbo.
I left with the fresh turbo and the truck felt the same as after the previous visit. DEAD. It was no longer overboosting but it was way down on power. I bought another MAP sensor and installed it since the loss of power followed the dealer change of that sensor. Still the same. I bought a laptop and AutoEngineuity software to see if I could trace down the problem. I did a lot of data logging on a lot of sensors. The one thing that didn't fit the parameters was the injection timing. It was reading in negative numbers. I unpugged the MAF sensor at the advise of a tech on another forum and the truck felt better. The MAF sensor also incorporates one of the intake air temp sensors which has an effect on engine timing. I replaced the MAF sensor but it was still powerless. After months of messing with it,I thought to see if the scanner would tell me what the flash strategy number was. It did and the results were that the tech had reflashed the computers and that was where the power went. I bought a replacement FICM and sent it to Power Hungry Performance and they flashed it with a strategy similar to what the truck had originally. That brought back a lot of the power. I checked the injection timing and it was within the appropriate parameters.
So, it may be that your truck was flashed (neutered) by a dealership before you bought it. I don't believe that fuel flow and filters is your problem. After all it is using copious amounts of fuel. That is flowing through your engine. Mine had lost economy as well. Have your tech check the injection timing.
I have bought a spare PCM and will be sending that off with another FICM to have it programmed to the exact same specs as the original 2004 that I bought.

kraftchick · 11-12-2009, 10:28 AM

Great info!!! One question I have though as I'm trying to teach myself and understand all this. I have a SuperChips Flashpaq that can do some basic data logging. I ran it this morning on the way to work with it set to display "Injection Timing Degrees". After it warmed up and I was cruising down the road, it was registering anywhere from 1019 to 1023. When I first started off (with a very short warm up since I was late already), it was registering (and fluctuating with various peddle positions) at 1.3 'ish. But again, after the truck warmed up and all the dash gauge needles were in their normal position, the injection timing degrees display was showing the 1019 to 1023. I have no idea what this means....does this mean anything to you guys, and if so....is this normal or out of spec? Oh, and I should mention that I have returned the truck to it's stock tune (well, it's the tune that was put on the truck when I took it to the dealer 2 months ago to have them re-flash the truck, hoping that might fix my problems). If I understand this correctly, when using the Flashpaq and installing the light load tune, the device will store whatever the truck has on it before reprogramming it....such that I can re-reprogram it back to stock...which is what I did after the last towing trip.

misterc · 11-12-2009, 01:59 PM

KC: I don't have a clue what your numbers are. The timing should read +or- a number of degrees from top dead center(when the piston is at the very top of the cylinder at the end of the compression stroke. Minus numbers would be after top dead center (ATDC) and positive numbers would be before top dead center (BTDC).
I am by no means an expert on this but I believe addon tuners have to use the parameters set in the FICM computer. Tuners change the program of the PCM (power control module). So if the dealer flash alters the timing parameters of the FICM (fuel injection control module) any tuner will also be constrained by those parameters. I may be wrong on this assumption so any of you techs can set me straight here. I suspect that the dealer flash dialed back the maximum allowable timing advance.
This is my first diesel but I am very experienced in gasoline engines and stayed busy for years building all kinds of racing engines. Getting the timing wrong makes a huge difference in power output. I suspect that this holds true with diesel engines as well.

**teamroper60** · 11-12-2009, 02:42 PM

Let me preface my remarks by saying I am not a tuner and there are a lot of things about tuning I don't understand.. With that out of the way, from what I have learned, tuners can change the timing, etc.. (at least to some extent) via changes in the PCM. The FICM limits other parameters such as pulsewidth though.

However, it has now been learned that messing with the timing is not only unnecessary most of the time but in fact detrimental a good portion of it. Many are now playing with fuel density rather than timing to make the changes they want for performance improvements...

Strokin' 6.0 · 11-12-2009, 05:05 PM

KC,

At this point, since you've done just about everything else, go to this website Hot Shot's Secret and order yourself a bottle. Follow the directions and see if there's a difference...your injectors might very well be needing a good cleaning, and this is the stuff that will do it.

Also, FWIW, my FICM died not too long ago, and I just had it replaced. The truck threw no codes whatsoever. My indy mech went in and the truck was clean of codes.

kraftchick · 11-13-2009, 09:19 AM

Ordered a bottle yesterday...figured it can't hurt. I guess it will come with some info, but just out of curiosity....the bottle is 64 oz. The video said to pour the whole bottle into the oil fill. Do you have to drain out some oil to make room?

0660harley · 11-18-2009, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kraftchick

Ordered a bottle yesterday...figured it can't hurt. I guess it will come with some info, but just out of curiosity....the bottle is 64 oz. The video said to pour the whole bottle into the oil fill. Do you have to drain out some oil to make room?

Any updates on your situation? Did you get the "hot shots secret" yet?

mittto · 11-18-2009, 02:08 PM

Newbie to the diesels also. My 05 F350 also seems to be lacking in power only when towing my 25' bumper pull toy hauler which weighs around 8000-8500 loaded and gets horrible mileage 7 -7.5.I am also getting crappy mileage around town 11-12 max. I also bought a diesel looking for better pulling performance as I was pulling it with a GM 5.3 and was working it pretty hard. The PS only seems to perform a little better but is WAY more stable. I did unplug the EGR and had no difference without the trailer "have not tried it with the trailer". I am going to take it down to the tech today and have him look at FP. and poosibly install a permanent gauge. I replaced the fuel filters when I bought the truck in October which I believe made no "or very little" difference.

On another note I called a friend of mine this morning at one of the local Ford dealers and he pulled an Oaisis report and stated that the truck had never been flashed. Question in regards to that: Does anyone know "or is there a way" to know what flash versions are better or worse than others?

BTW this post is awesome everyone has been extremely helpful.

kraftchick · 11-19-2009, 09:17 AM

I did get the Hot Shots, but have not poured it in yet. I'm do for an oil change which I am planning on doing Saturday, and will pour it in then. The documentation states that it may take 100-300 miles for it to do its job. We'll see what it does.

Lately on this thread there's been a lot of folks continuing to mention FICM issues, with no codes being produce. Can anyone further describe everything that the FICM does? I understand it's the Fuel Injection Control Module, but what part of fuel injection is it responsible for? I'm assuming that it is not responsible for fuel pressure, but probably everything else?

Thanks again for all the replies and help....someday, this issue will get resolved....and if and when it does.....it will be because of this forum!!!!

**teamroper60** · 11-19-2009, 05:39 PM

The FICM is a computer in itself that works in conjunction with the PCM (Powertrain Control Module, aka computer). It contains it's own programming which controls the electrical side of the injector. It receives input from the PCM and then tells the injectors when and how long to dump in fuel (pulsewidth), etc...

You are correct, it does not control fuel pressure, that is a mechanical function....

saycheessee · 11-20-2009, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teamroper60

The FICM is a computer in itself that works in conjunction with the PCM (Powertrain Control Module, aka computer). It contains it's own programming which controls the electrical side of the injector. It receives input from the PCM and then tells the injectors when and how long to dump in fuel (pulsewidth), etc...

You are correct, it does not control fuel pressure, that is a mechanical function....

You just explained to me in three sentences what it took the mechanic in my local town 3 weeks to determine in my truck. They worked with ford for 3 weeks and finally changed the PCM after changing the FICM, EBP, EGR, EP?? (something EP) intake gasket, 2 turbos and run the entire wiring harness down to see if it had any cuts in the harness.. OMG it was a nightmare!! We finally suggested that they check the computer and they did and changed it and I finally had my truck back after going to pick it up 3 times when they said it was fixed and I didn't make it out of the parking lot with it. Including going 25 mph one time out of the parking lot and I held it to the floor until I got it back too! I was extremely upset then. I wished I had you guys working on my truck. !! But one thing that I have read here tonight, is that everyone is going to the cetane in the fuel around here is running extremely low and causing them to sutt up and causing power loss. Has anyone else had this problem? They say here in Kentucky it's running around 35 and shoudl run around 65? (that's what I was told.. is that correct??)

**teamroper60** · 11-21-2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saycheessee

But one thing that I have read here tonight, is that everyone is going to the cetane in the fuel around here is running extremely low and causing them to sutt up and causing power loss. Has anyone else had this problem? They say here in Kentucky it's running around 35 and shoudl run around 65? (that's what I was told.. is that correct??)

Cetane should be around 45. 65 would be too high and although it might let the truck start quicker, it will negatively affect performance......

LocoMike · 11-21-2009, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mittto

Newbie to the diesels also. My 05 F350 also seems to be lacking in power only when towing my 25' bumper pull toy hauler which weighs around 8000-8500 loaded and gets horrible mileage 7 -7.5.I am also getting crappy mileage around town 11-12 max. I also bought a diesel looking for better pulling performance as I was pulling it with a GM 5.3 and was working it pretty hard. The PS only seems to perform a little better but is WAY more stable. I did unplug the EGR and had no difference without the trailer "have not tried it with the trailer". I am going to take it down to the tech today and have him look at FP. and poosibly install a permanent gauge. I replaced the fuel filters when I bought the truck in October which I believe made no "or very little" difference.

On another note I called a friend of mine this morning at one of the local Ford dealers and he pulled an Oaisis report and stated that the truck had never been flashed. Question in regards to that: Does anyone know "or is there a way" to know what flash versions are better or worse than others?

BTW this post is awesome everyone has been extremely helpful.

make sure that your ENGINE COOLANT TEMP isn't throwing you into "de-fuel" mode when your working your truck. High ECT will put you in a de-fuel limp mode. Lots of things effect ECT. Coolant System clean, clutch fan working, all common sense you can think of.

Monitoring ECT, EGT, EOT and Tranny Temp is critical and can tell you if you have a problem.