More 6.0L Problems - Diesel Forum

Ken Kaepernick · 09-16-2005, 04:41 PM

Here we go again. First let me thank all who have provided advice in the past - especially Grampy Jim. This 6.0 is getting to be a real pain in the rear.

A little history --- the 6.0 is in a 2004 E 350 -- currently with 106,000 miles. The oil cooler was replaced at 101,000 per Grampy Jim's advice. Unfortunately, Ford refused to provide any assistance with the bill - even after a letter to Bill Ford and the Board of Directors of Ford that detailed the LONG history of issues we have experienced with this vehicle. The only reaction was -- "It's out of warranty!!!" Case closed - there was NO recourse. So, I paid the bill and put it back on the road.

Now - The most recent issue.......... On a run from Wisconsin to Midland, TX the engine refused to start on two occasions. The first time, it had been driven for about 250 miles after numerous restarts, shut it off, tried to restart after five minutes of standing and it cranked over just fine, but would not fire. After 10 attempts of cranking 10-15 seconds, waiting about 10 seconds and recranking it fired up - no smoke, nothing unusual, it ran fine. BTW - I could hear the fuel pump each time.

It started just fine the next three starts. On the fourth restart, I went through the same problems again. Only this time it took more attempts before it fired off. Since this was a high paying load, and I didn't want to risk a late delivery because this thing wouldn't start; I didn't shut the engine off until I delivered and returned home - 1400 miles and 43 hours of continuus running. (BTW - it uses 0.5 gallons per hour idling with the A/C on.)

Other than this the engine performed fine.

It's been at the dealer for three days now. It has started every time since it came back from Texas. The only code that showed up was one that said it was "chipped"; but that is impossible because this thing is EXTREMELY stock, and the service manager knows it. He could not explain the code. Neither can he explain why I experienced the starting problems. They are going to keep it another day to see if they can make it mess up.

Does any one have any ideas?? I forgot to mention that this problem developed about 10 startups after it had been in for the recall before this most recent recall - I don't remember the number -- it's the one that did something to do with a connector. Now they are doing 05E15 for the second time.

Guys, I really need help. I have already lost trust in this engine and it't getting worse. The problem is --- what's the alternative?

Thanks lots.

Ken............

superf350 · 09-16-2005, 04:58 PM

I'd check your batteries. If I'm not mistaken I thought the dealership's "chip" test showed a low voltage like the batteries were disconnected. I'm sure one of the dieseltechs will chime in if I'm way off.

Scottbagwell · 09-16-2005, 05:09 PM

sounds like the high pressure pump hpp.

Ken Kaepernick · 09-16-2005, 05:12 PM

You know, I thought about the HPOP, too. I know on the 7.3 slow starting was a clue to a bad pump. But, I thought maybe the 6.0 had solved that problem. Does anyone know the cost of the HPOP on the 6.0?

**teamroper60** · 09-16-2005, 05:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The only code that showed up was one that said it was "chipped";

[/ QUOTE ]

For starters, I'm not a tech, but I don't believe there is a specific code that says there is a chip. At least, there is not in the last manual I saw. The usual code that leads dealerships to say there is a chip is the Keep Alive Memory error code (P0603), which indicates the batteries have been disconnected. This leads me to question your batteries. When was the last time they were checked/replaced?? If the batteries are ok, then I would suspect some other electrical issue that is cutting off power between the PCM and the battery. (Possibly a wire chafing problem?? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img])

PoppaSmurf · 09-16-2005, 06:17 PM

If you had the ICP connector recall performed and your problems started after that was done, I'd start there. I read through the recall procedures and didn't like what I read as far as changing out that connector. Butt splices? NO THANKS! I want my connector soldered in.

If your PCM is getting strange/noisey signals from the ICP, perhaps its not thinking you have the oil pressure to start firing the injectors. (Just a guess) The next time you are having a no-start condition, pop the hood and try wiggling that connector (more specifically, the butt splices) and then retry to start.

Good luck and definately let us know what the fix was, once you do get it fixed.

Good luck sir!
Brian.

GrampyJim · 09-17-2005, 12:42 AM

Let's see if I can keep the "batting average" high....

I'm betting the "chip" code the dealer is getting is P0603. While it is common to many chips that clear Keep Alive Mmory at every key on, it can also show that the PCM has experienced some sort of lost power event... give me a couple of days and I'll try to determine all the parameters that can set this code.

It appears that your hard restart/no restart concerns are with a "hot" motor. Like the 7.3, this can be some sort of concern with the HPOP system. Yours should be one of the "so called" late build motors with the ICP on the right valve cover and the wavey high pressure oil rails. Though I haven't seen the concern, yet, talking to other techs shows that there has been concerns with the feeder tubes that run from the HPOP to the standpipes in the heads.

Since the concern is usually only evident with a motor at operating temperature, the air test can be inconclusive. Monitoring the ICP/IPR PIDs when the concern is occuring can indicate if we are on the right track or not.

Sadly, this is not one of the smaller repairs.... trans comes out and the rear cover is removed from the motor... removing the rear cover improperly can result in bed plate leaks so care must be taken.

I sincerely hope that a simpler cause is found for your concern but, with the info given and the lack of a chance to test.....

HTH

Ken Kaepernick · 09-19-2005, 11:45 AM

Note to Grampy Jim --

You are right - the code was 603.

The van is still at the dealership - in the shop. I'll be calling them this morning to see what the plan is. As of Friday afternoon, it had started everytime they tried it.

Regarding the ICP - I'm currently in California (grand daughter's second birthday), so I don't have access to the van. Are you saying there was an engine design change during the 04 model year? This one was built sometime early in May, 2004. Where is this "wavey line" that you are talking about? Assuming it is the problem that your techs are describing, (ie the lines to the standpipes,) what is the fix? Is it necessary to replace the HPOP, or modifify the lines?

Since all the work is performed at the rear of the engine, it seems like this is probably the ONLY time that it might be easier to work on the van as oppposed to the truck. Once the doghouse is removed this whole area is exposed.

Concerning the HPOP - Are there any pressure tests that would indicate a potential problem. I know the 7.3 would still start and run with a pressures that were less than optimal; however it was a predictor of future problems. Will the 6.0 do the same? Or are you saying that the pump may be OK, and the problem lies elsewhere in the HP distribution system?

As I review these questions, I realize they seem naive, but I have never torn down a 6.0; and I'm beginning to understand that there are almost no similarities between the two engines.

Once again, thanks for all your help.

Ken.......

Scottbagwell · 09-19-2005, 01:10 PM

they can plug in and monitor all the pressures while cranking and determine the cause. tsb 15-12-3 covers the replacemment of the hpp and ipr on the 6.0. a failing hpp does not apparently always throw a code. the tsb allows for about 8 hrs to change out for a truck, a little longer for a van.