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Old 03-27-2010, 09:51 AM   #1 (permalink)
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antifreeze question

I'm replacing the water pump on my 99 f250 and asked my dad to pick up some antifreeze he got advanced auto's universal mix with any colors and all makes and models I don't know a lot about this stuff and I want the best for my truck so pleas give me some input thanks. Amzie
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Old 03-27-2010, 10:01 AM   #2 (permalink)
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The best thing you could do for your truck is to use a heavy duty extended life coolant (ELC) like Rotella ELC - with that, you will have no further cavitation prevention to do for 300,000 miles

The second best thing you could do would be to use the Ford Gold antifreeze, and monitor your SCA levels at the recommended intervals as per Ford's TSB

The worst thing you could do would be to use a one size fits all or green antifreeze which would require an immediate infusion of additives, and regular monitoring for the rest of its very short life.

Take the time to find ELC - you may have to call a few places but its worth the effort.
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Old 03-27-2010, 10:08 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Here is a lengthy explanation I copied from a member (Gooch) on another thread:

Some errors and corrections....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been getting lots of PM's about Bob's coolant/SCA article (the sticky that was closed), and I would like to address a few things to help folks better understand. I think Bob realizes that much of his information is out-dated, pertains to certain engines other than our Powerstrokes, and is just plain wrong.

To give you a little background, first let me say that I've had extensive training and education in the field of coolants, some by the coolant manufacturers themselves. I worked with International during their cavitation crisis of the 6.9L and 7.3L IDI, helping to write bulletins, provide technical field data, and testing several different types of coolants, SCA's and mixtures thereof. I've operated and maintained a large fleet (100+ vehicles) of International/Ford 7.3L Powerstrokes. I am also a Mechanical Engineer with a background in Materials Science who has studied cavitation in cylinder walls and water pumps. Coolants are my specialty.

Where diesel cylinder cavitation is concerned, the bubbles are formed by the rapid flexing of the cylinder wall liners as the high compression, high energy diesel combustion process takes place. Much like if you filled a plastic liter pop bottle up with water and rapidly flexed the sides of the bottle back and forth with your hand. Bubbles form without any heat present. The bubbles in diesel cylinder wall cavitation don't explode, they implode due to pressure. It is this implosion against the metal surface that causes the pitting to form in the outside of the cylinder wall. Eventually the prolonged pitting become a hole. Water/coolant enters the cylinder, and thus we have engine failure (usually via hydrolock). Unlike gasoline engines, all diesel engines experience some level of inherent cavitation, some worse than others. FWIW, the Ford 6.9L and 7.9L IDI's origianlly had serious cavitation issues because Ford did not initially require (or add) SCA to the coolant. Ford later issued a bulletin to address that, and problems decreased dramatically.

As Bob stated, SCA's are one method of inhibiting cavitation by providing a barrier on the coolant side of the cylinder wall. However, I would like to say that it is not necessarily the SCA's displaced layer that can cause scale and coolant system plugging, but the components in the SCA itself, particularly when mixed with H2O or glycol. The use of conventional SCA is effective, but it requires testing, careful dosing, and frequent flushing. It will reduce heat transfer, and exacerbate water pump and other engine component failure.

One thing that importantly needs to be corrected, and a mistake than many misinformed people make, is that not all OAT coolants are like what GM uses. GM typically uses a "Dexcool" forumulation, which is specifically not recommended for your diesel engine. Dexcool type coolants were never intended for diesel applications. There are many modern Heavy Duty Extended Life Coolants specifically designed for diesels. Delo ELC, Rotella ELC, International's Fleetrite ELC, CAT ELC, Mobil 1 ELC, and a host of others. They will address diesel cavitatation, provide superior metal corrosion protection, provide better heat transfer, require no testing and maintenance, be free of harmful abrasive silicates, borates, and phosphates, and have an operating life up to 1 million miles (Delo ELC). In fact International, who made your engine, recommends and factory-fills with these Heavy Duty Extended Life Coolants (Fleetrite ELC/Shell Rotella ELC). And in fact almost all heavy duty diesel manufacturers use Heavy Duty ELC's meeting the most strict requirements in the industry...Caterpillar's EC-1. Very little to do with GM's OAT coolant.

No where has Ford said you can not use a heavy duty ELC in your Powerstroke due to seal incompatibility. That is simply more misinformation. As we know International makes the engine and uses the HD ELC coolant, generally in more harsh, commercial applications. Seals are fine. The only coolants in the Owner's Manual Ford recommends you don't use are Dexcool and Ford's Specialty Orange. Owners and fleets have been using HD ELC successfully, and in fact with better success, for many, many years.

Another correction...Ford's Gold (G-05) coolant is nothing like a Heavy Duty ELC coolant. Thus is will not meet the more stricts specs of other Heavy Duty ELC coolants, or provide the higher level of protection. The Gold is simply a universal hybrid, one-size-fits-all coolant that Ford uses in its entire line up that, with the exception of the Powerstroke, are all gasoline engines. Ford simply uses the Gold in your diesel out of convenience, simplicity, cost, and uniformity throughout it's product line and dealerships. The Gold coolant contains conventional (green coolant) components like silicate, which eventually form microscopic abrasives that eat water pump seals. It provides a lower level of cavitation protection using traditional SCA's like Nitrite, it has a shorter life, it reduces heat transfer compared to HD ELC's, and it in fact does require testing and SCA maintenance if you are an enthusiast about protecting your engine. In fact Ford recommends you add SCA to the Gold in certain F-Series applications. Caterpillar and John Deere also recommend adding SCA if it is going to be used in their diesels. Ironically, Ford's Gold will not meet International's heavy duty diesel B-1 spec. HD ELC's will. The Gold will work, but it's not the best.

For the record, adding SCA to a HD ELC will not produce anything close to "mud" or "goop". That is more misinformation. HD ELC's and SCA's are completely compatible, although not recommended only because you will lose the long-life properties of the HD ELC. There is no need to add SCA to HD ELC's. "Extenders" are available to add to HD ELC's if you want to further extend their life from the 300K, 500K, or 750K mile mark (depending on brand).

I have no intention of discrediting Bob's comments about the Evans and RMI-25, only to inform you. Evans is a good product, although expensive and hard to find. Less expensive, easier to find modern HD ELC's provide similar operating lives and similar (or better) protection. And the Evans does require modification of your cooling system to run low pressure, when your water pump seal is designed to run (and seal) under higher pressure, as documented by Ford. I have not used RMI-25 and don't plan to for reasons I won't discuss here. I would not recommend putting anything into your cooling system other than coolant and SCA.

Additionally, these days it is not appropriate to identify coolants by color. Color means nothing. A "green" coolant could be anything from a conventional, to a pre-charged, to a G-05, to an ELC. Same with red, purple, pink, gold, etc. You have to know what type of coolant it is.

There are 4 choices for your Powerstroke....

Conventional coolant (usually green) with the addition of SCA at initial fill. Frequent SCA testing and maintenance there after.

Pre-charged coolant (usually purple or pink). Comes with an initial dose of SCA. Frequent SCA testing and maintenance required thereafter.

G-05 coolants. Comes pre-charged with SCA package. Fush required at 50K miles. Semi-annual SCA testing and maintenance recommended.

Heavy Duty Extended Life Coolants. Come pre-charged with carboxylate inhibitors. No testing or maintenance. Super protection. Super long life.

Specialty coolants. Evans. Waterless, pressureless. Long life. No maintenance or testing. Expensive.

Not to be used - Dexcool, Universal coolants, All-makes-all-models, etc.

I use Chevron's Delo HD ELC. Good for 750K miles/8 years or 1M miles with addition of an extender.
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Old 03-27-2010, 11:46 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by troyerdiesel View Post
I'm replacing the water pump on my 99 f250 and asked my dad to pick up some antifreeze he got advanced auto's universal mix with any colors and all makes and models I don't know a lot about this stuff and I want the best for my truck so pleas give me some input thanks. Amzie
I'm guessing he got the 50/50 premix? That coolant will work if you add some SCA to it. It would be way down on my list of choices.
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Old 03-27-2010, 12:17 PM   #5 (permalink)
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...he got advanced auto's universal mix with any colors and all makes and models
That is the old "green" antifreeze that your '99 came with. Add the proper amount of supplemental coolant additive (SCA), and you'll have the correct coolant for your truck.
Antifreeze/Coolant (1 Gallon) by Advance Auto Parts

Notice the specs: "Meets or exceeds ASTM D-3306 and ASTM D-4985". Those are the specs for heavy-duty, low-silicate green antifreeze, but it will also work in gasers.

The SCA Ford used is Fleetguard DCA4, wrapped in a Ford package. You need three pints in a complete flush and fill. Ford and Fleetguard recommend 4 pints, but that is too much for a long life of your water pump.

If you use the green antifreeze with SCA, then you need to test the coolant about every oil change to be sure it has enough SCA. Ford says you should use Fleetguard 3-way coolant test strips, and maintain the SCA concentration between 1.2 and 3.0 SCA units per gallon. When I used green coolant, I tried to maintain mine between 1.2 and 2.0 SCA units per gallon to help the water pump live longer. My original stock water pump is now 11 years old with over 180,000 miles and still going strong.

You can buy the SCA and test strips from
DieselManor - Cooling System Products

In 2001, Ford changed to an almost-maintenance-free antifreeze - Zerex G-05, which Ford calls Motorcraft Premium Gold. A couple of years later Ford announced that you can run the G-05 coolant in any '99-up PSD as long as you do an outstanding job of flushing all the old stuff out with distilled water. The G-05 doesn't require SCA, except after 10 years experience with the G-05 Ford decided you should check it every year or so to be sure it doesn't need more SCA.

Here's the current service coolant usage chart (SCUC) used by Ford techs when servicing Ford vehicles. Yes it applies to diesels, including yours.
Ford Service Coolant Usage Chart

Notice the fine print at the bottom of the chart. If you change from green to gold, you must flush out all the old coolant so nothing is in the system except distilled water. Then add concentrate antifreeze - not 50/50. Here's the procedures I used last time I flushed mine:
Cooling System Flush And Fill Methods For The Average Joe And The Perfectionest

Ford has never approved use of any ELC coolants for our trucks. Some folks run ELCs, but Ford has never blessed it. And they have specifically warned against using the first of the ELCs, which is any ELC that meets GM's DEXCOOL specs.
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Old 03-29-2010, 09:16 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SmokeyWren View Post
Notice the specs: "Meets or exceeds ASTM D-3306 and ASTM D-4985". Those are the specs for heavy-duty, low-silicate green antifreeze, but it will also work in gasers.
That's incorrect. ASTM D3306 is not a heavy-duty or a low-silicate spec. Only the ASTM D-4985 is the heavy-duty, low-silicate spec.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyWren View Post
Ford says you should use Fleetguard 3-way coolant test strips, and maintain the SCA concentration between 1.2 and 3.0 SCA units per gallon.
Ford doesn't say that. Ford only says to add 8-10 oz of SCA every 15,000 miles. It's in the Diesel Supplement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokeywren View Post
In 2001, Ford changed to an almost-maintenance-free antifreeze - Zerex G-05, which Ford calls Motorcraft Premium Gold.
Never heard of an "almost" maintenance-free antifreeze? Actually in 2001 Ford claimed their Motorcraft Premium Gold G-05 was completely maintenace-free, requiring no addition of SCA. Owners who believed them are now finding out their cavitation protection could be low, and Ford now suggests (via TSB) testing and maintaining the Premium Gold G-05 to nitrite levels of 800 ppm.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokeywren View Post
A couple of years later Ford announced that you can run the G-05 coolant in any '99-up PSD as long as you do an outstanding job of flushing all the old stuff out with distilled water.
Actually several years prior to that, after testing, International released an announcement to use ELC coolants in those same engines. Ford was about 3 years behind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokeywren View Post
The G-05 doesn't require SCA, except after 10 years experience with the G-05 Ford decided you should check it every year or so to be sure it doesn't need more SCA.
It not only requires SCA, but it comes right out of the bottle with SCA (nitrite) already in it. What happened was enough problems cropped up and enough owners found their protection too low that Ford finally issued an expensive TSB to have owners test and maintain the Gold's SCA to 800 ppm.



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Originally Posted by Smokeywren View Post
Ford has never approved use of any ELC coolants for our trucks. Some folks run ELCs, but Ford has never blessed it.
Ford doesn't say you can't use an ELC, and Ford isn't going to recommend something they don't sell. Actually the Motorcraft Premium Gold is an Extended Life Coolant, and Ford even calls it that. It does contain most of the same components. You can use it, maintain it, and flush it more frequently if you want. I like ELC and a lot of owners use it.
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Old 03-29-2010, 09:28 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Ford doesn't say that.
Yes, Ford says that. It's on the bottle of the Ford SCA. "Use Fleetguard DCA4 test strip kit CC2602 to determine if recharge is required". Then the instructions that are part of the test strip kit says to maintain the coolant between 1.2 and 3.0 SCA units per gallon.

But you knew that.
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Old 03-30-2010, 11:47 AM   #8 (permalink)
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No, I didnít know that.

The maintenance information in my Ownerís Diesel Supplement only says to add 8-10 oz. of SCA every 15,000 miles. The Diesel Supplement didnít list a specification for the SCA or recommend test strips, so I used John Deere branded DCA-4 and John Deere test strips that were available locally.

Ford doesnít say anything about maintaining the SCA level between 1.2 and 3.0 or testing it with test kit CC2602. Fleetguard says that after you buy their Ford labeled SCA. In fact Ford doesnít even sell test strips.

Using your thinking, an owner would need prior knowledge, or first buy the SCA, to know how to maintain his anti-freeze. An owner would also have to assume that his maintenance instructions in the Diesel Supplement are erased.

I understand owners should use test strips and maintain their SCA to adequate units. However, you are wrong to say Ford says to do that. Ford just tells owners to add 8-10 oz. every 15,000 miles. Fordís objective was to avoid confusing, technical anti-freeze maintenance for average Joe owner. But you knew that.
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Old 03-31-2010, 06:39 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I am going to flush my coolant system, how much coolant will i need to refill the system. thanks
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Old 03-31-2010, 07:18 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I am going to flush my coolant system, how much coolant will i need to refill the system. thanks
Ford says the 7.3L engine cooling system holds a total of 8 gallons. Bob Riley found out that it actually holds closer to 7 gallons. I have confirmed that Bob is right. So if you do a complete flush where nothing is in the system except distilled water, then pour in 4 gallons of concentrate antifreeze, you will have better than a 50/50 mix.

If you want to do a good flush of your cooling system, use the "perfectionist" procedures at this link:
Cooling System Flush And Fill Methods For The Average Joe And The Perfectionest
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Old 03-31-2010, 09:05 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Ford says the 7.3L engine cooling system holds a total of 8 gallons. Bob Riley found out that it actually holds closer to 7 gallons. I have confirmed that Bob is right. So if you do a complete flush where nothing is in the system except distilled water, then pour in 4 gallons of concentrate antifreeze, you will have better than a 50/50 mix.

If you want to do a good flush of your cooling system, use the "perfectionist" procedures at this link:
Cooling System Flush And Fill Methods For The Average Joe And The Perfectionest

I am surprised that no one has mentioned that the early 99 are not compatible with some of the antifreeze mentioned above, the OP did not say whether it was a 99.5 or the early 99. I think this should be pointed out if he does have the early 99
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Old 03-31-2010, 10:16 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I am surprised that no one has mentioned that the early 99 are not compatible with some of the antifreeze mentioned above, the OP did not say whether it was a 99.5 or the early 99. I think this should be pointed out if he does have the early 99
I know the post I posted was lengthy, but it does address this "issue"

Gooch points out that neither Ford, nor Interntational, has ever said there is an incompatibility issue. This is a rumor, which has been well propagated. International, the maker of this engine, recommends ELC in all of its 444 engines, even the IDI versions.
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Old 03-31-2010, 10:41 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I know the post I posted was lengthy, but it does address this "issue"

Gooch points out that neither Ford, nor Interntational, has ever said there is an incompatibility issue. This is a rumor, which has been well propagated. International, the maker of this engine, recommends ELC in all of its 444 engines, even the IDI versions.
IH says ELC is ok to use in engines built after 2/2/99 with serial numbers above 940614.
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Old 03-31-2010, 01:54 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Ford says the 7.3L engine cooling system holds a total of 8 gallons. Bob Riley found out that it actually holds closer to 7 gallons. I have confirmed that Bob is right. So if you do a complete flush where nothing is in the system except distilled water, then pour in 4 gallons of concentrate antifreeze, you will have better than a 50/50 mix.
It holds 8 gallons. What Bob Riley found was how much anti-freeze could be drained from the system, not how much it holds.

Thatís why you do a flush, to force out what couldnít be drained. There will be anti-freeze left in the oil cooler, and cavities in the head, block, water pump, and heating system. You can see that anti-freeze coming out when flushing because the water will be colored for several minutes (impossible to un-dilute and measure it).

If you do a complete flush, then add 3.5 gallons of concentrate thinking the system only holds 7 gallons, you will end up with a weak concentration. 4 gallons of concentrate will make the 50/50.

Smokeywren I am curious how you verified that the system holds only 7 gallons. How did you measure what was left in the oil cooler, hidden in the rest of the system, and the anti-freeze that came out with the flushing water?

You can find this and 444-D's ELC date/serial number confirmed by Gooch in his flushing instructions.
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Old 03-31-2010, 03:47 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I know the post I posted was lengthy, but it does address this "issue"

Gooch points out that neither Ford, nor Interntational, has ever said there is an incompatibility issue. This is a rumor, which has been well propagated. International, the maker of this engine, recommends ELC in all of its 444 engines, even the IDI versions.
I would like to see that written by International where they say to use ELC for the early 99 build date before 2/2/99 . I would like Gooch to come on here ,and say ELC is okay, the last time I asked him it was not okay, and if the rules have changed then I stand corrected. I was told not use ELC, but to use convention low silicate coolant precharged with SCA or without ,and add SCA

If you doubt what I have said please do a search on a thread started on 8/13/08 on a reply I got from Gooch about this issue

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