Effects of Mercon V in the 4R100? - Page 3 - Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com
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99 & up 7.3L Power Stroke Engine and Drivetrain Discussion of the 99 & up 7.3L Power Stroke diesel engine and drivetrain in the 1999-Up Super Duty trucks and Excursions. No gas engine discussion allowed except on transmissions and drivetrain that pertain to all models. Please confine discussion of topics in this forum to those items that are specific to the 7.3L Power Stroke engine.

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Old 10-09-2005, 10:19 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Re: Effects of Mercon V in the 4R100?

ddog -- Every Ford publication I have ever seen says not to use MERCON V in the E4OD/4R100. It would probably be a good idea for your buddy to get a complete flush with MERCON.

From the 2002 F-Super Duty/Excursion Workshop Manual:
SECTION 307-01: Automatic Transaxle/Transmission SPECIFICATIONS
CAUTION: Using a transmission fluid that indicates a dual usage (MERCON ® and MERCON ®V) in a transmission application requiring only MERCON®, may cause transmission damage. Use of any fluid other than the recommended fluid may cause transmission damage.
NOTE: Refer to the fluid level indicator and the Owner's Guide for the type of transmission fluid required. Some fluid labels may indicate dual usage such as MERCON® and MERCON ®V. These dual-usage fluids are not to be used in transmissions that use only the MERCON® type fluid. These dual-usage fluids may be used in transmissions that require MERCON ®V use.

Now why it is not okay to use MERCON V, I have no idea. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

And fellas, please try to keep the discussion civil. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Cheers from Orlando, FL! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 10-09-2005, 11:19 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Re: Effects of Mercon V in the 4R100?

I just checked and my Haynes manual (not the most authoritative, but better, IMO, than Chilton) specifically cautions against using Mercon V or dual rated automatic transmission fluid in the '01 F250.

I really believe there is no reason to go ad hominem with this discussion. We can all agree that each of us can run whatever fluid we wish in our trucks and can even suggest it to others. We must, then, be ready to defend our suggestions and opinions.

I commend Atlanta for having, maintaing and making successful a business. That ability is WHAT makes the USA different from much of the rest of the messed up world. So why don't we keep our discussion centered on the topic rather than on the poster.

When it comes to the TOPIC, "Let's get ready to rumble..." [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

I'm glad to have a place to post my opinion and discuss the diffences with others interesed in Ford Diesels. Go TDS! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old 10-09-2005, 11:22 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Re: Effects of Mercon V in the 4R100?

wow what a thread!

atlantaboy has got you guys all worked up!

kind of reminds me of my 12 year old kid taunting my 8 year old. she'll tease him with something she knows is not true working him into a lather.

last time i checked this was a free country and atlantaboy is entitled to his own opinion and i have absolutely no problem with that.

having said that.........just because you say the sky is green with purple stripes doesn't make it so.

it is pretty clear from the operating manual and the tsb previously posted that mercon is the only acceptable tranny fluid for the 4r100.

if i remember correctly according to mark k. (the ford tranny engineer) mercon V was made for the newer trannys. it has different friction modifiers that over time break down the seals in the clutch packs and cause slippage and eventual failure. he also said that this damage is a slow continual process.

besides you guys gotta be smarter than that. atlantaboy is just sitting back at his computer laughing his silly head off while he gets a rise out of you guys, just like my 12 year old. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

just because someone puts a cow patty sandwich in front of you doesn't mean you gotta take a bite! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bleh.gif[/img]

johnnieboy [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 10-09-2005, 11:28 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Re: Effects of Mercon V in the 4R100?

Hey, I teach High School and have to deal with this all the time. If what you say is true then Atlanta should be ashamed of himself.

Atlanta is not 12 or 8 or in High School: if he is doing this just to cause problems, then shame, shame, shame on him.... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/vomit.gif[/img]

I certainly would not suggest that Atlanta is doing what he is doing just to cause problems. If it were to happen again, then maybe I would think it...but not now. I give him credit as a logical, well-meaning diesel aficionado who is trying to help (which is what we are trying to do...)
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Old 10-10-2005, 06:38 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Re: Effects of Mercon V in the 4R100?

Thanks, he did that the same day I talked to him on the phone. Its rather amazing how a seemingly innocuous post(thread) such as this can generate traffic and use up bandwidth when responses like yours and a few others in the first page basically answer the question with facts and some references for further reading.If Ford feels strongly enough about it to issue a TSB on the subject in addition to what is already printed in the owners/service manuals, thats good enough for me (and my buddy, who doesn't do internet and just drives his truck)It has made for some entertaining reading however, although its still not as good as coolant thread.
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Old 10-10-2005, 07:21 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Re: Effects of Mercon V in the 4R100?

Some of what happened here is Mark K, the Ford tranny engineer that used to be a regular here was kind of discredited. He is truly highly regarded here by some of the old timers that have been around awhile. For one reason or another, he no longer can/will post on TDS but his word was highly respected.
From what I remember, he said eventual failure of the tranny would come using Mercon V in something more than 10k, but it would come. Yes, I read it on the Internet, however, when someone of the caliber of Mark K said it, I and a lot of others listened (and took notes).
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Old 10-10-2005, 09:53 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Re: Effects of Mercon V in the 4R100?

When your transmission shifts the clutches slip momentarily while they apply. It doesn't make any difference if it is an upshift or a downshift a small amount of slippage occurs. A few years ago some of Fords transmissions shuddered when they shifted. Merc V was developed to stop this shudder. I'm guessing they made it slicker to do this. I asked Mark Kovalsky this question and never got an answer. If it is slicker then every time your transmission shifts it slips more than it would with Mercon. The clutch assemblies may also creep more under load. Your transmission might live a long and healthy life with Merc V but the less slippage you have the better. As I said earlier, It is real easy to find someone that says Ford recomends Merc V but I have yet to see anyone produce one single piece of evidence that says anything but the opposite.
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Old 10-10-2005, 04:17 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Re: Effects of Mercon V in the 4R100?

I thought Dextron III was the same as Mercon. i.e. Dextron III fluid can be used in a Mercon application. I could be wrong...
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Old 10-10-2005, 04:30 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Re: Effects of Mercon V in the 4R100?

[ QUOTE ]
I thought Dextron III was the same as Mercon. i.e. Dextron III fluid can be used in a Mercon application.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are the same. All of the packages I see are labeled Dexron III/Mercon and the Mercon V fluid is only Mercon V. BUT, if you want to really confuse the issue look at a Motorcraft number XT-5-OMC.
It is labeled Mercon V/Dexron III.
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Old 10-10-2005, 04:54 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Re: Effects of Mercon V in the 4R100?

Dexron(original, II,IIE, III)and Mercon are the same and are often packaged labeled in the aftermarket as Dexron III/Mercon. Dexron is GM's copyrighted name, and Mercon is Ford's. "Mercon V" is different fluid than Mercon (aka Dexron/Mercon)and the TSB discussed earlier in the thread indicates it(Mercon V) is not compatible in transmissions calling for Mercon. The marketing genius at Ford that came up with that "Mercon V" should have forseen the potential confusion(not to mention reprimanded for his lack of originality).GM (Dexron) ATFs have always been backwards compatible. You can run Dexron III fluid in your 1972 Chevy Pick-up that originally called for Dexron. I Think when Mercon V was introduced, that early on the same backwards compatibility of the Dexron Fluids was assumed for the new Mercon V. Ford now has three ATF fluid types to chose from depending on vehicle age and transmission type. Ford Type F, Mercon (same as Dexron), and now Mercon V. None of which are apparently interchangeable between applications based on Ford literature.

Instead of calling it Mercon V, they should have followed the trend they use for coolant,maybe dye it a different color like purple and call it Motorcraft Premium Purple ATF.
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Old 10-10-2005, 05:00 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Re: Effects of Mercon V in the 4R100?

[ QUOTE ]
Ford Type F, Mercon (same as Dexron), and now Mercon V.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget Mercon SP.
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Old 10-10-2005, 05:42 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Re: Effects of Mercon V in the 4R100?

[ QUOTE ]
Don't forget Mercon SP.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a new one on me. Is that for the Fjord's ?
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Old 10-10-2005, 06:37 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Re: Effects of Mercon V in the 4R100?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't forget Mercon SP.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a new one on me. Is that for the Fjord's ?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's for the 5R110 torqueshift tranny.

Larry
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Old 10-10-2005, 06:45 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Re: Effects of Mercon V in the 4R100?

[ QUOTE ]
Some of what happened here is Mark K, the Ford tranny engineer that used to be a regular here was kind of discredited. He is truly highly regarded here by some of the old timers that have been around awhile. For one reason or another, he no longer can/will post on TDS but his word was highly respected.
From what I remember, he said eventual failure of the tranny would come using Mercon V in something more than 10k, but it would come. Yes, I read it on the Internet, however, when someone of the caliber of Mark K said it, I and a lot of others listened (and took notes).
Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Mark was ever discredited and was/is one of the most straight shooters and knowledgeable tranny person ever to post here. Some might have disagreed with him, but as they say "ignorance is bliss" so I don't blame those select few. He had the inside info on the testing that Ford did using Mercon V in the 4R100 and he said it will destroy/fail the tranny and that's good enough for me. It's sort of like coolant you either believe those that should know or some internet posts and you take your chances.

End point is DON'T USE MERCON V IN A 4R100 TRANNY

Larry
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Old 10-11-2005, 01:30 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Re: Effects of Mercon V in the 4R100?

Ford tech was replying to a question about a dealer putting Mercon V in a vehicle that was Mercon only.


It depends on which trans you have. If you have the 4R70W, they did the right thing. If, on the other hand, you have the 4R100, GET IT OUT!

The difference between the two fluids is in the additives, and that "V" is at least partially synthetic. The synth is NOT the reason you CANNOT use it in a 4R100, but the additives are.

Let me explain as best I can.....

The 4R70W/AODE/AX4N/S etc. suffer from "shudder" which is caused by the T/C clutch not slipping smoothly under steady state cruise conditions. So, FMC re-engieers the ATF to make them less prone to oxidation and burning, this also makes the fluid slightly LESS grippy. This is ok, because the trans controls and the clutches are aggressive engough to handle the Tq, and they DO NOT typically perform full throttle upshifts into OD (you'd be going faster than the speed limiter is set for).

Now, with the 4R100, it's Tq capacity is 1000 ft-lbs, and that's A LOT. When you take peak engine Tq and multiply it by the T/C ratio, you can get pretty close to that (especially with a 7.3L DIT). You NEED all the grip you can get to clamp the friction elements. If you put the "slippier" Mercon V fluid in, the T/C clutch and other friction elements will be BELOW the required Tq limit, even if only slightly. Also, the 4R100 and the "Tq Shift" are the two ONLY FMC transmission that are DESIGNED and programmed to allow and handle full power upshifts in EVERY gear. Again, you need all the grip you can get for this to not totally burn up the clutches.

There are also differences in the clutch materials, but I don't recall the specifics. Suffice it to say that because of the lower absolute tq capacity requirement of the "smaller" ATs, they can get away with a slight loss of element Tq capacity.

Believe it or not, the T/C clutches are DESIGNED to slip at a constant rate to absorb driveline harmonics which could confuse the cam sensors on the engines. It truely is NOT needed, but they do it anyway. If not for that, Mercon V would not be required at all.
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