99 & up 7.3L Power Stroke Engine and DrivetrainDiscussion of the 99 & up 7.3L Power Stroke diesel engine and drivetrain in the 1999-Up Super Duty trucks and Excursions. No gas engine discussion allowed except on transmissions and drivetrain that pertain to all models. Please confine discussion of topics in this forum to those items that are specific to the 7.3L Power Stroke engine.
I am assuming that the pressure relief valve is at the outlet of the return to tank line.
Correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtrucklady
I open the filter body drain line and no fuel came out. Perhaps I will leave the drain valve open and run the pump. If restriction is in the tank return line I should get fuel.
That's a good plan. If the return line is restricted, it shouldn't prevent fuel from getting to the filter housing.
There's a block-off valve in the stem inside the filter housing that will stop the incoming fuel if there isn't a filter installed. Longshot, but worth checking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtrucklady
Do not believe the fuel bowl as filled since the start of the problem.
In the tank return possibilty, would the engine at least try to crank, pressurized fuel would be there.
No fuel in the bowl would defiinitely be a cause of a no-start. As I said above, a blocked return line wouldn't necessarily cause a no-start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by equipmentguy
Just a thought but are we sure it is a fuel proplem. A lot of things can keep it from starting have you checked the sensor on top of the HPOP resvory, the HPOP or the IPR sensor. All of them and several others could cause this problem.
OP said no fuel in the bowl, so that's a pretty clear indication.
BTW, the sensor on top of the HPOP reservoir is the LOW Pressure oil switch that only controls the gauge. It has no effect on the engine running, just tells you that you have at least 7 psi of oil pressure. The ICP sensor that controls the engine is on the head just behind the alternator. Pulling it's connector loose will cause the PCM to go to default and may allow starting IF the problem is associated with HP oil pressure not building up high enough.
Well I am going back to a pump problem even though the pressure test resulted in 45 lbs pressure.
Here's what I tried tonight. Found the filter bowl drain line and hooked up hose to a catch pan. Secured the pump suction hose into the Jug of diesel. Turned the key on, heard what I thought was the pump. Turned the key on about times. Heard the noise about 3 time and then it stopped. No fuel in the drain line catch pan.
Re the stem valve that will block flow if no filter installed, go thing I decided against just leaving the filter empy and cap off.
Can anything go wrong with this stem valve??How does it work??
Any ideas what the noise I am hearing. I know it is not the pump. I turned the key and then jumped under the car to feel/listen to the pump. The sound was definately coming for the engine compartment ares.
Thanks for all the comments and being patience with this newbie. I obviously have alot to learn.
I know what sound you mean. I am not 100% positive, but i assume it is a vacuum pump. It is in the area passenger side, in the engine compartment.
So summary:
You checked that you are getting power on the pump terminals. (Did you check with a multimeter?)
You took out the pump and hooked it up directly to a battery and the pump runs and builds pressure.
The moment you have a (working) pump in your truck (that supplies power), nothing works?
Does sound weird. Just to make sure: You are sure you hooked up the pump the right way? red on plus terminal, black on minus?
Have you done a test where you leave the pressure side of your pump off and hook the suction side up to the tank and run it? This determines 1. if the pump is running 2. if you are sucking fuel out of the tank, hence the pick-up and line from the tank to the pump are ok.
Just trying to narrow it down.
__________________ Eriol: 2002 F350 PSD Lariat SCSB 4WD 4R100; 396,000 km as of Dec. 2011 actual: AFe Stage 1 Air Intake, 4" straight pipe Exhaust, Edge Evolution 2 programmer, running 65% SVO in tank.
guzzle's in-tank fuel mod (hutch mod and harpoon mod). thank you guzzle. 586-902 stancor glow plug relay moved out of the valley. Baldwin 1212 pre-pump filter modification. Always bright OHC. in process: A-Pillar gauges: Fuel temp at bowl, switchable fuel pressure in bowl before and aft filter, fuel temp at in-exhaust fuel heater and in fuel return line. billgart inspired back-up / working lights in rear bumper, CCV modification (will design my own and document it, plan this to be my first write-up), AIH delete (relay mod done) planned: guzzle's TC lock-up, regulated fuel return Cedric: 1991 Jeep Cherokee Laredo Zebra, 5spd. trans. 4WD, 4.0l
You checked that you are getting power on the pump terminals. (Did you check with a multimeter?)
Yes with a multi meter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eriol
You took out the pump and hooked it up directly to a battery and the pump runs and builds pressure.
Yes it builds pressure. First time pretty fast later times took longer but I was pulsing the power. Went to 45 psig which I believe is about spec.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eriol
The moment you have a (working) pump in your truck (that supplies power), nothing works?
It does not get fuel to the filter bowl. I believe before I took it out I had the discharge tube off the pump and put power to the pump and got fuel. I did not know if it generated enough pressure so I took the pump out to test.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eriol
Does sound weird. Just to make sure: You are sure you hooked up the pump the right way? red on plus terminal, black on minus?
Luckily for me the terminals are different sizes and they are not interchangable. When I removed the pump I did break the positive terminal off and had to replace. I was worried about knowing which was positive till I realized the ground was larger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eriol
Have you done a test where you leave the pressure side of your pump off and hook the suction side up to the tank and run it? This determines 1. if the pump is running 2. if you are sucking fuel out of the tank, hence the pick-up and line from the tank to the pump are ok.
Did this (see above) but at this point I am going to repeat today.
Thought I might rig something to blow air through the fuel line to the filter but the "block valve" might be a problem. Was going to look at the filter bowl more closely, try to fine the feed line and break before the block valve.
Someone mentioned a block valve at the filter. Can this fail? what does it look like?
__________________ Eriol: 2002 F350 PSD Lariat SCSB 4WD 4R100; 396,000 km as of Dec. 2011 actual: AFe Stage 1 Air Intake, 4" straight pipe Exhaust, Edge Evolution 2 programmer, running 65% SVO in tank.
guzzle's in-tank fuel mod (hutch mod and harpoon mod). thank you guzzle. 586-902 stancor glow plug relay moved out of the valley. Baldwin 1212 pre-pump filter modification. Always bright OHC. in process: A-Pillar gauges: Fuel temp at bowl, switchable fuel pressure in bowl before and aft filter, fuel temp at in-exhaust fuel heater and in fuel return line. billgart inspired back-up / working lights in rear bumper, CCV modification (will design my own and document it, plan this to be my first write-up), AIH delete (relay mod done) planned: guzzle's TC lock-up, regulated fuel return Cedric: 1991 Jeep Cherokee Laredo Zebra, 5spd. trans. 4WD, 4.0l
Morning
Being on east coast I have a few hour jump on you here. Have already review the fuel bowl rebuild you refer too. (thanks guzzle) Have noticed a few things. Do not believe there is anything between the pump and the bowl, except long line. The check valve is on the inject pump side.
I am going back to the pump. There has to be something wrong there.
Update!!!
Have found that now I am not getting power to the pump. the fuse (believe it was #40 20A) fuse ok definetly no power. Also filled the fuel bowl and expected the fuel to drain down the line into a pan. There must be some sort of check valve in the line from the pump to the bowl.
CPS sensor ?? would that cut the power to the pump??
Last edited by newtrucklady; 01-23-2010 at 05:34 PM.
Reason: Update
...There's a block-off valve in the stem inside the filter housing that will stop the incoming fuel if there isn't a filter installed. Longshot, but worth checking.
After reading guzzles filter bowl rebuild info, examined the filter bowl. The blck valve stem you refer to looks like it is on the discharge side on the filter. If it is somehow connected to the inlet line, what am I missing
ran pump with suction from the tank, using battery to power. Pump worked and pumped to jar.
Reconnected the fuel discharge line. ( still can't figure out the the special tool for the quick connect)
Ran pump on battery power, fuel pumped to filter bowl and out the drain.
Closed drain, and went to drives seat and tried to start car. IT STARTED, RAN ROUGH, AND THEN QUIT. Progress at least
Ran pump on battery power, fuel pumped to filter bowl and out the drain.
Closed drain, and went to drives seat and tried to start car. IT STARTED, RAN ROUGH, AND THEN QUIT. Progress at least
That's a good sign. If you haven't been able to get the pump to run when connected to the regular supply wiring, there are a couple things to check. You may need a helper to check the voltage/pump operation, as the pump only runs for 20 sec or so if the engine hasn't started. Or just try your test above again using the normal connection with an empty catch pan under the drain to see if you get fuel out the drain.
1. There's a fuel pump cutoff (inertia switch) behind the passenger side kick panel. At the upper rear of the panel, there's a hole you can reach thru and press the reset button.
2. Fuel pump relay is located behind the inst panel to the right of the fuse panel and left of the radio (below it) on a 99-01 truck. I believe on the 02 and newer trucks, the FPR is in the fuse relay panel under the dash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtrucklady
CPS ??
Nope, not if you got it started with aux power to the fuel pump.
If you post your model year, I can check to see if the fuel pump wiring is much different on the early or later model years and give you some pointers for electrical troubleshooting. Sounds like that might be a big part of your problem - getting power to the fuel pump.
It's also possible that it's too weak to maintain flow and pressure (did you test pressure output at the filter housing while the pump was running on battery power?)
I agree.
It is a good sign that something is happening.
It sounds as if you actually have two problems:
1. el. power to the pump.
2. the not smooth running of your engine. It could be not enough fuel to the injectors, e.g. too low fuel pressure, too low fuel flow.
double-check everything in the el. supply of the fuel pump. My experience: do not ASSUME. check. Go back from the pump, relay, fuse, cut-off, wires and connectors in between.
for the not smooth running: Do you have the possibility to read out the codes? This helps a lot. This can tell you where the problem is. If you do not get codes, then the big suspect is fuel delivery. (believe it or not, but fuel delivery in quantity and pressure are not getting monitored as good as I would have expected). Reading the codes is a good starting point.
And I agree with klhansen: I don't think it is the CPS. Shooting into the dark, I would say not sufficient fuel.
__________________ Eriol: 2002 F350 PSD Lariat SCSB 4WD 4R100; 396,000 km as of Dec. 2011 actual: AFe Stage 1 Air Intake, 4" straight pipe Exhaust, Edge Evolution 2 programmer, running 65% SVO in tank.
guzzle's in-tank fuel mod (hutch mod and harpoon mod). thank you guzzle. 586-902 stancor glow plug relay moved out of the valley. Baldwin 1212 pre-pump filter modification. Always bright OHC. in process: A-Pillar gauges: Fuel temp at bowl, switchable fuel pressure in bowl before and aft filter, fuel temp at in-exhaust fuel heater and in fuel return line. billgart inspired back-up / working lights in rear bumper, CCV modification (will design my own and document it, plan this to be my first write-up), AIH delete (relay mod done) planned: guzzle's TC lock-up, regulated fuel return Cedric: 1991 Jeep Cherokee Laredo Zebra, 5spd. trans. 4WD, 4.0l
....
1. There's a fuel pump cutoff (inertia switch) behind the passenger side kick panel. At the upper rear of the panel, there's a hole you can reach thru and press the reset button..
I looked for this after reading about it. I could not find it. Looked behind the glove box. The kick panel is just below the glove box right? will look again.
update:
found the hole (and the label and arrow pointing to it) From what I can feel. There is a oval "hole" that feels like it might have a button at the bottom. I assume that if the relay has tripped then the button would be raised and it would be obvious. I can feel down into the this "hole" and nothing moves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by klhansen
2. Fuel pump relay is located behind the inst panel to the right of the fuse panel and left of the radio (below it) on a 99-01 truck. I believe on the 02 and newer trucks, the FPR is in the fuse relay panel under the dash..
In the owners manual I did not see reference to the fuel pump relay, just the injector driver module relay. Is there another? Truck info is now in my signature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by klhansen
Sounds like that might be a big part of your problem - getting power to the fuel pump.
It's also possible that it's too weak to maintain flow and pressure (did you test pressure output at the filter housing while the pump was running on battery power?).
I assume you are talking about removing the outlet line from the fuel pressure relief valve and installing a gauge.
What pressure should I get. I did hook up the pump (out of my vehicle) to a test rig and got 45 psi dead headed. Doing what I said above would also be dead headed.
Thanks for the suggestions/help. Tis a matter of pride now, got to figure this out.And it is going to get cold again mid week.
2. the not smooth running of your engine. It could be not enough fuel to the injectors, e.g. too low fuel pressure, too low fuel flow..
Darn, thought I was past the fuel issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eriol
..Go back from the pump, relay, fuse, cut-off, wires and connectors in between..
Wish I had a wiring diagram. I think you have an '02. Where is the relay. Only one i see listed is an injector relay. How do you test the relay? Cut off I need to find.
Update did find the cut off and I think it is fine. Atleast I could not find a button popped up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eriol
Do you have the possibility to read out the codes? This helps a lot. This can tell you where the problem is. If you do not get codes, then the big suspect is fuel delivery. (believe it or not, but fuel delivery in quantity and pressure are not getting monitored as good as I would have expected). Reading the codes is a good starting point.
I can borrow a cheap one. Was looking a one at Amazon Actron CP9125 PocketScan Code Reader. What one do you recommend. I don't know how much I will work on the truck. Winter is a slow time for me so it makes life interesting. At any rate being able to know what the issue might be before I take it to the dealer would be good!Recommendations would be appreciated.
If you are getting 45 psi dead headed on your pump, this seems low. The pump should be capable of supplying 45 to 60 psi with the engine running and using fuel. Do you have a possibility to do a fuel pressure check at the fuel bowl when the truck is running? This then tells you right away if the pump is good enough.
Code reader: make sure you get one that works on your ford truck. Just because it is an ODBII reader does not mean it is working on our trucks.
I ran into this trap. I bought a reader, the reader was always telling me no codes found. I was happy. It only got weird as the truck was not running and I was not getting codes. Then I figured it out. ODBII is not ODBII on our trucks.
I have a Ege Evo II programmer on my truck. This programmer can read out the codes.
__________________ Eriol: 2002 F350 PSD Lariat SCSB 4WD 4R100; 396,000 km as of Dec. 2011 actual: AFe Stage 1 Air Intake, 4" straight pipe Exhaust, Edge Evolution 2 programmer, running 65% SVO in tank.
guzzle's in-tank fuel mod (hutch mod and harpoon mod). thank you guzzle. 586-902 stancor glow plug relay moved out of the valley. Baldwin 1212 pre-pump filter modification. Always bright OHC. in process: A-Pillar gauges: Fuel temp at bowl, switchable fuel pressure in bowl before and aft filter, fuel temp at in-exhaust fuel heater and in fuel return line. billgart inspired back-up / working lights in rear bumper, CCV modification (will design my own and document it, plan this to be my first write-up), AIH delete (relay mod done) planned: guzzle's TC lock-up, regulated fuel return Cedric: 1991 Jeep Cherokee Laredo Zebra, 5spd. trans. 4WD, 4.0l
... The pump should be capable of supplying 45 to 60 psi with the engine running and using fuel. Do you have a possibility to do a fuel pressure check at the fuel bowl when the truck is running? This then tells you right away if the pump is good enough..
Not sure how I would do this.. Perhaps I should just buy a now fuel pump. But then I still have the power problem...
Quote:
Originally Posted by eriol
I have a Ege Evo II programmer on my truck. This programmer can read out the codes.
I will look this one up...
I have read some info that states no fpr on this model ford. Reference to the injector relay. Do you know how to test the relays?
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), AIS, 
the fuse (believe it was #40 20A) fuse ok definetly no power. Also filled the fuel bowl and expected the fuel to drain down the line into a pan. There must be some sort of check valve in the line from the pump to the bowl.
) From what I can feel. There is a oval "hole" that feels like it might have a button at the bottom. I assume that if the relay has tripped then the button would be raised and it would be obvious. I can feel down into the this "hole" and nothing moves.
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