Hard Start / No Start when warm

[Vaquero45]

Originally Posted by wallysheata

Ok, pulled apart the IPR valve last night, was pretty straight forward, the orings all looked just fine, and the piston inside of it moved freely and there was no gunk or anything in there, but i went ahead and sprayed it down, cleaned it up and put the new orings on. In the process of removing the fuel filter bowl, i noticed 3 of the 4 fuel line orings were totally shot, so much so that they fell out in pieces. I went to the International dealer in town, and he only showed one size oring, so i got that and it was fit the largest fuel line on the driver side down low. The upper line on the driver side is the next size down, and the two smaller lines on the pass side are even smaller. Napa didn't have the parts, so i'm wondering if anyone knows what the part # for those are, or what the correct size is for them? I'm going to have to wait until monday i'm guessing for the Stealership to open and head over there.

My thought is however that the truck is not running once warm because these orings are so shot, it's letting air into the system and not holding a constant fuel preassure. Anythoughts?

I had the same problem you have described, only I didn't go to Ford. Turned out to be a fueling issue, i.e. would not hold pressure until the engine had cooled off. I'm sorry, I don't remember exactly, but I do believe it was the IPR. If it would help, I will call my mechanic and find out for sure. Notice the truck in my sig.....'02

[wallysheata]

Originally Posted by CPUNeck

So are you getting smoke while cranking? Perhaps you should also inspect the fuses and relays. My favorite (has sh&# the bed twice on me) is the IDM relay. Find it and temporarily swap it with the blower fan relay. Worth a shot, and is the right price.

yup it's smoking white/blueish smoke while cranking. Like i said the problem all started with the no start when it was warm, this happened maybe 15-20 times where it would not start once the truck was warmed up and running. then it started to die at idle on me a few times, so i took it to the ford dealer. Now i've done all the work the dealer was going to do minus replacing the IPR Valve which i just tore apart and put a new oring kit on, and still doesn't run. Will have an updated tomorrow once i swing by the ford dealer and see about getting the fuel orings for the lines going in and out of the filter. Just wish there was a way i could figure out exactly what's causing the issue and fix it. I love the diesel, but damn i've NEVER owned a vehicle that could have so many different problems and no one can be sure exactly what's causing the issue

[wallysheata]

well we got a foot of snow last night, and i don't have a garage that fits the pig, so i ended up swapping out the IPR Valve based on the ford dealers recommendation (they said they couldn't help me if i didn't do all the work they recommended) so it STILL won't start, cranks like crazy, but just sounds like it's not getting fuel, i'm going to swap out the grey cps tomorrow and see if maybe that's the issue. I'm just REALLY fed up with this truck as i've spent almost $900 in parts/diagnostics as well as 5 days working on it, vs the $2,000 the dealer wanted fix it in a day, and it still won't run

[CPUNeck]

Well if it's any consolation, if you did what they were going to do over a week and it didn't fix it, I believe it would still be broke a day later had they done it.

Originally you posted a reading of ~12.7 volts for the GPR. Couple of questions... Was that on the feed side that leads to the GP's? or on the Batt side (toward the front of the truck.) Also, when you took this reading, was the engine cold (like before you started it for the day), or after it was completely up to operating temperature.

Where I'm going, perhaps the GPR isn't making good contact once it swells from engine heat, but when you first start, everything is cold (read contracted) and better contact (more juice to GP's) is made. Just a WAG. Although I believe the 12.7 isn't low enough, seems my GP's draw more than that, unless your engine was running.

[losfinch]

Just to check..did you try unplugging the electrical connection to the ICP to make it go its default value? (If it runs unplugged then its the culprit).

[wallysheata]

Originally Posted by losfinch

Just to check..did you try unplugging the electrical connection to the ICP to make it go its default value? (If it runs unplugged then its the culprit).

That's a good call, i will check that today, as for the GPR, i just installed a new International GPR?

[catch&release]

Originally Posted by losfinch

Just to check..did you try unplugging the electrical connection to the ICP to make it go its default value? (If it runs unplugged then its the culprit).

Ya, seems to me that there was a similar thread recently about "hard warm start" and replacing the ICP seemed to fix the problem.

[wallysheata]

pulled the ICP Sensor plug and still no start, it just cranks like crazy but doesn't seem to be getting ANY FUEL as it won't even begin to sound like it wants to start...no where to

[wallysheata]

FWIW here's what the diagnostics print out from ford Reads. I'm totally stumped at this point and the truck is sitting, i want to fix this ASAP so any and all input is appreciated!!!

165322 2.00 Verified concern. Check CMDTC, KOEO. P2291 Present. Check Fuel Preasure, In Spec. Inspect fuel quality, Good. Check for fuel restriction from tank to pump, pulled 2" vacuum - in spec. Diagnosis H/P Leak. Perform leak test on H/P Oil system, found IPR Valve leaking, found right bank leaking 10%high, left side leaking 23% high. Customer declined resealing injectors and replacing IPR Valve at this time.

[CPUNeck]

Looks like the FORD guys are saying your IPR is leaking, and that the leak down on the high pressure oil circuit for both heads is to high. This would certainly present your symptoms. What we need to know is what the leak down is for similar 7.3's of this age and mileage. Wonder why they didn't do a flow test on the HPOP.

[klhansen]

Originally Posted by CPUNeck

Looks like the FORD guys are saying your IPR is leaking, and that the leak down on the high pressure oil circuit for both heads is to high. This would certainly present your symptoms. What we need to know is what the leak down is for similar 7.3's of this age and mileage. Wonder why they didn't do a flow test on the HPOP.

If they followed the book for the HP oil leak test, they blocked one supply hose and then the other, and compared the change in IPR duty cycle and pressure, although don't know what they would have used for reference. The next step in the test is to block BOTH hoses and again look at IPR duty cycle. That part of the test only tells them that either the IPR OR the HPOP are leaking. Replacing with a known good IPR and retesting is the next part of the procedure and if it fails that, the HPOP is not producing the pressure it should.

That's why I questioned earlier how they could tell it was the IPR, and how many injector o-rings were leaking. The best they could do is estimate based on the difference in IPR duty cycle, and that's basically a WAG. I know I had 2 leaking o-rings on one side, and only one on the other and my IPR duty cycle readings were pretty much the same on both sides.

[CPUNeck]

Hmmm wonder if they're just typing that stuff up (not a print out from test equipment) and pulling numbers straight from their 4th point of contact.

[wallysheata]

Originally Posted by klhansen

If they followed the book for the HP oil leak test, they blocked one supply hose and then the other, and compared the change in IPR duty cycle and pressure, although don't know what they would have used for reference. The next step in the test is to block BOTH hoses and again look at IPR duty cycle. That part of the test only tells them that either the IPR OR the HPOP are leaking. Replacing with a known good IPR and retesting is the next part of the procedure and if it fails that, the HPOP is not producing the pressure it should.

That's why I questioned earlier how they could tell it was the IPR, and how many injector o-rings were leaking. The best they could do is estimate based on the difference in IPR duty cycle, and that's basically a WAG. I know I had 2 leaking o-rings on one side, and only one on the other and my IPR duty cycle readings were pretty much the same on both sides.

OK, so i did replace the IPR Valve with a new one, so how do i go about testing the HPOP? I guess that seems to be the next step. FWIW, the dealer want's $750 for a new one, and i found some reman ones for $350. Any input as to where/what HPOP i should get if in fact it is the HPOP?

[klhansen]

To recap what you've done (as I understand it):
Replaced Injector o-rings
Replaced IPR

Still have a no-start.

I would think that you've gotten the air purged out of the oil rails by now with the number of attempts to start. After changing injectors, the oil rails have to refill with oil before you can build pressure. Pull the two front oil rail plugs and see if the rails are full. it takes a lot of just cranking to purge the air out. I usually spin it with the starter and the glow plugs out till I hear/feel the rails pressurize. It's a lot easier on the starter when it's not working against compression.

If you can get someone to loan you a Scan tool that will monitor ICP and IPR duty cycle, and it says you aren't getting 500 psi while cranking, then it could be that your HPOP has died. The alternative method is to get a heavy duty 0-3000 psi gauge and hose setup (probably $50-$100 to buy) and manually monitor HPOP pressure while cranking. You can hook to any of the ports on the heads to do that.

Had one other thought. Are you SURE you put the oil rail plugs back in (if you pulled them) when you did the injector o-rings? That would definitely cause a no-start, as all the oil pressure would squirt out under the valve covers.

I think if I were in your position, verified all of the above and still had insufficient pressure, I'd go with Bob Riley's Adrenaline HPOP. I don't think what Ford sells is a NEW pump, but a reman, so if you don't go with a Ford reman, then any other reman would probably be OK.

[on edit] I just read Bob's Adrenaline Instructions - Some very good info there. You should read it as well, and possibly even give Bob a call to talk about your issues. http://dieselsite.com/pdffiles/adrtt.pdf

[wallysheata]

OK, recap as to what's happened in order as listed:

- replaced injector Orings, new updated UVCH, Glow plugs, and Glow plug relay (did not pull the oil drain plugs, just put the valve cover on, cranked motor by hand with no glow plugs, the bumped the starter a few times to purge the oil from the cylinders)
- once back together, cranked and cranked no start, killed batteries, let em sit and charge, 5 hours later it started in the driveway and i let it idle for about 20 min before turning it off.

- Next morning, couldn't get it to start again, so took the jeep and dragged it down the road in 2nd gear to get it to start, took it for a test drive and blew a bunch of greyish smoke out the tail pipe the first mile. Started romping on it after 3 miles, i lost boost, then fuel, and the truck died.

- At that point, i replaced the IPR Valve orings, and new fuel filter orings still no start

- then replaced the IPR valve, still no start

- pulled ICP sensor, no start

- sprayed some starting fluid in, still no start

I'm now looking at bringing it to a powerstroke shop here in town come monday and just let them sort it out. I lost my job last month when my company went bankrupt, and don't really have the $$$ to be paying a shop but at the same time, i can't afford to have the truck not running, as there's some opportunites for side work, hauling loads