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99 & up 7.3L Power Stroke Engine and Drivetrain Discussion of the 99 & up 7.3L Power Stroke diesel engine and drivetrain in the 1999-Up Super Duty trucks and Excursions. No gas engine discussion allowed except on transmissions and drivetrain that pertain to all models. Please confine discussion of topics in this forum to those items that are specific to the 7.3L Power Stroke engine.

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Old 10-26-2005, 01:57 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Injector cups

I posted about a month ago regarding getting fuel into the coolant system of my 99 PSD. The local Ford shop (Doyle Motors, Susanville CA) finally got me in and as suspected fuel was getting by the cups. They ran the tests and determined that the engine was leaking on both sides. That sounds to me like a major failure. So now I am looking at about 17 hours labor plus parts [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]!
Has anyone else experienced this problem where more than one cup was leaking? The truck has 106,000 miles on it. I would like to contact Ford to see if they would cover part of the bill but have no idea where to start. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img] This is extremely frustrating as this is the first time I haven't been able to fix a problem myself because of lack of time available. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
Any input is appreciated! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 10-26-2005, 02:17 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Injector cups

First off, injector cups can easily be replaced with the heads on the block, and the engine still in the chassis...17 hours seems excessive

Once the valvecovers and injectors are pulled (1.5-2 hrs), the coolant sys would need to be drained (a couple of plugs on the block, and a couple of radiator hose clamps~ 1hr), then all is left is inserting the cool little cup puller tool (looks like a big tap) and then you're only a slidehammer away from having the cups out (3 hrs would be generous to pull at 8 cups, on top of the other hours) ...double the time to include reassy, and yeah...it's getting close to 17 hours, but not really...besides I highly doubt their diagnosis...

Secondly, injector cup failures are very rare, and for BOTH heads to have cup failures is bordering unbelievable.

I dunno man...there's really no other way for fuel to mix w/ coolant...are you/they 100% sure it was fuel and not engine oil? If it was oil, then the most likely culprit would have been the oil cooler...

If you have ANY time, a good weekend would allow you to pull the valvecovers, all the injectors, and then pull one plug on the head to screw a fitting into it, through which to use compressed air (regulated down to ~15psi) to pressurize the coolant system, and visually inspect the cups in the head for coolant.

take care & good luck~

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Old 10-26-2005, 03:10 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Injector cups

I'm 99% sure it was fuel. I used a 60cc syringe to pull it off the coolant in the resorvoir. Definately smelled like fuel. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]
I wish I had a full weekend...
The system (coolant) had been overpressurized as it blew the cap! That's another reason I thought it had to be fuel.
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Old 10-26-2005, 06:02 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Injector cups

dang dude...

The injector cup basically seals in two area...the upper part of the cup seals the coolant from the fuel rail (a rail which is line bored through the head (lengthwise, front to back)

The lower part of the injector cup seals coolant from pouring into the cylinder...(has the truck ever hydro locked?)

Since the cups are one piece, I find it hard to believe that the cup could leak in one area (fuel) and not leak coolant into the cylinder creating a serious hydro locking problem...but man...

Blowing the coolant out of the resevoir is typically a headgasket failure...even then...fuel into the coolant is one of those real PITA deals...

I would almost suggest drawing another sample from the resevoir and sending it off to be analyzed to confirm fuel is the contaminant and not oil...

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Old 10-26-2005, 08:57 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Injector cups

golfer...you won't hydrolock the engine with a cracked cup...there is the copper washer at the tip of the injector that seals the combustion chamber. It is highly likely the cup is cracked. If it was engine oil, you should be able to tell by the dark black sooty oil versus the clear fuel.
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Old 10-27-2005, 10:24 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Injector cups

Definately fuel. Regarding hydrolock, never. There wasn't any oil in the coolant, no oil in the fuel, no coolant in the oil. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]
As far as coolant leaking into a cylinder, I just assumed it had. As soon as I discovered fuel had found its way into the coolant and over pressurized the coolant system I didn't even try to crank the engine at all. I was affraid of a hydraulic situation.
I do have good news though, I just found a website regarding lemon laws etc. I'll let you know how it goes... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
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Old 10-27-2005, 11:37 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Injector cups

I had some work donw under warranty on my rig I had the Hpop rings, and turbo pedistal rings replaced, and some other Misc work done at 105k, the dealer told me they can do one warranty job after the warr is up to keep customers. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img] not sure if this is true at all dealers, but mine worked hard for me.
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Old 10-27-2005, 04:34 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Injector cups

[ QUOTE ]
golfer...you won't hydrolock the engine with a cracked cup...there is the copper washer at the tip of the injector that seals the combustion chamber. It is highly likely the cup is cracked. If it was engine oil, you should be able to tell by the dark black sooty oil versus the clear fuel.

[/ QUOTE ]

The copper washer seals the injector body to the injector cup, not the head...if the cup was cracked (down where it seats onto the head) or were the cup loose it would surely leak coolant into the cylinder. regadless of whether the copper washer was sealed tight to the cup or not.

Granted, the cup could be cracked up in the larger diameter area, where the fuel enters the cup/inj, and NOT be cracked where it seals to the head...but on both heads?

strange

take care~

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Old 10-27-2005, 05:56 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Injector cups

[ QUOTE ]
The copper washer seals the injector body to the injector cup, not the head...if the cup was cracked (down where it seats onto the head) or were the cup loose it would surely leak coolant into the cylinder. regadless of whether the copper washer was sealed tight to the cup or not.



[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly, it seals on the top side of the cup, but when you tighten your injector hold down bolts, the bottom of the cup is also pushed down against the cast iron head and seals the combustion chamber. The injector crushes the copper washer, and sandwiches the cup between the copper washer and cylinder head. I agree that if the cup cracked under the copper washer it could allow coolant into cylinder, but they typically crack between water jacket and fuel rail which is why cooling system fills with fluid. I personally have not seen a hydrolock due to coolant entering cylinder from a cracked cup...only into coolant. Stranger things have happened.
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Old 10-28-2005, 10:43 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Injector cups

i have a 2000 e350 in the shop now with the same problem you need to replace the injector cups
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Old 10-28-2005, 10:51 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Injector cups

Do a search under JLerch over on the 94-97 side.
He went through this whole deal and made some of the tools. And yes, he had more than one at a time leaking. Seams all of them were damaged at install by the factory an started leaking at about the same time. I would want to at least test the injectors- likely coolant seeped into them while the engine was shut down.
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Old 11-01-2005, 11:31 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Injector cups

found the head was cracked at number 4 injector cup
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Old 11-02-2005, 12:09 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Injector cups

[ QUOTE ]
Do a search under JLerch over on the 94-97 side.
He went through this whole deal and made some of the tools. And yes, he had more than one at a time leaking. Seams all of them were damaged at install by the factory an started leaking at about the same time. I would want to at least test the injectors- likely coolant seeped into them while the engine was shut down.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would be far more inclined to believe that a single overpressure event caused all of them to leak than all of them being bad from the factory. The assembly process doesn't necessarily put two consecutive built heads onto the same engine.
And now that I think about it, blowing a head gasket into the water jacket like I did would be a good way of doing it.
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Old 11-02-2005, 09:22 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Injector cups

Truck should be done Thursday. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] It was injector cups. I'm not sure which ones but I'll post as soon as I find out. Also had glow plugs replaced as 6 of 8 were shot.
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Old 11-04-2005, 09:12 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Injector cups

The truck's home and the wife is happy [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] and so am I [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].
The shop replaced all 8 injector cups, all 8 glow plugs, had to recharge the AC, did a complete service including filters, new o-rings, Anti-freeze w/additive, cleaned inside and out and all the misc. stuff. $2100. What do you guys think?
The only problem is a slight tick or knock that sounds like a valve out of adjustment. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img] I'll be calling the shop this morning and post the results later.
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