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Old 07-31-2005, 11:52 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Fuel Injector cup replacement, Was FPR surprise

I thought I'd create a new thread for my latest symptom, Fuel in the coolant reservoir.

It has been suggested that a failed fuel injector cup might be the culprit. This diagnosis makes sense with regards to how the truck runs better with low fuel pressure (11psi) vs. the proper fuel pressure of ~45psi. In addition, I've put 800 miles on the truck since I purchased it, and have not visibly lost any coolant, so I'm hoping it's not a cyl head gasket. If it was a head gasket leak between combustion chamber and coolant passage, I'd expect the coolant to level to drop rather rapidly (at least that's my experience with gas motors). Also, the oil doesn't appear contaminated with coolant, also I'm not "Making Oil".

So, first order of business, finding the failed injector cup. I'm going to start with cyl #4, as it is the one that fails the contribution test at high fuel pressure. If I find the cup failed as a result of corrosion from poor coolant maintenance, should I attempt replacing all the injector cups?

Now, about that special removal tool, where should I start looking for one, is there a part number for it? Anyone have one they want to sell, rent, or "lend / lease"?

Any tips, tricks, or special procedures I should be aware of? So far all I know is the cup is held in place with green Loc-tite. Is there an o-ring somewhere? Anything I should be especially aware of during the cup replacement (other than typical injector replacement procedures?)

I'm really not looking forward to this, but I know for certain it's not going to the shop!

I'm also guessing that if fuel is getting into the coolant, coolant is also getting into the fuel. Consequently would this be a good time to step up and replace the fuel injectors while I'm at it? If so, I'm considering a set of Bean's stage 1 injectors, any thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance,
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Old 07-31-2005, 12:19 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel Injector cup replacement, Was FPR surprise

Generally yes the fuel and coolant go both ways. One way to determine which bank is the culprit is to remove the fuel lines that go from the cylinder head to the regulator. Than pressure test the cooling system and see which hose starts pushing the fluid out.
I know that a kit is sold that has the tap and the installer. You will still need a slide hammer also.
When tapping the sleeve, put a piece of plastic or rag down the hole so no shavings get down into the cylinder. Make sure the hole is cleaned very well and dry before installing the copper. Loctite goes around the bottom and top portion of the sleeve. Hammer sleeve down inplace and than wipe the loctite up that may have gotten in the inside portion of sleeve. You don't want the injector to end up permanently stuck. Main thing is to make sure that everything is clean before installing.
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Old 07-31-2005, 02:38 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel Injector cup replacement, Was FPR surprise

James,

If your doing one, do them all, at least on that head. I doing the change right now. My motor is on a stand.

I checked around for purchase the tools.....$450 [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img]

I then tried to borrow some, and had somebody that was goning to borrow thiers after they had done some heads in their shop. I just couldn't wait anymore and I made my own.

I got the new injector sleeves from Dale Lakin @ Powerstrokeshop.com , about $9ea. You will also need injector o-rings for the injectors you remove, again $8-9 each. The Loc-Tite 620 is the recommended, about $12-15 for a small bottle.

You also need a good stiff wire brush with a flat end to clen the bottom of the bore before you install the new sleeve. Here's a good link www.nav-international.com.br/manual_i/powerStroke/cap_e10.asp

If you buy a 1 1/4"-18 tap I'll gladly send you the other things I made to pull these. www.jlindustrial.com they list the tap for about $70

Oh, and I made a driver to seat the new sleeves.

Dan
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Old 07-31-2005, 06:47 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel Injector cup replacement, Was FPR surprise

I was making coolant with the white truck before it blew, it is a pain to do it on the truck, to be safe if I were to do thsi again, I would remove both heads , unless you can find which side it si and take it to a shop to have them done. It needs to sit for 24 hours before you fire it up.
I had replaced all on one side hopeign that I had it right, as one had gone before, I was wrong ans cost me large.
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Old 07-31-2005, 08:22 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel Injector cup replacement, Was FPR surprise

OK Gents,

A) Thank you for the great info so far.

B) Here's where we're at, Pulled the #4 injector, definelty doesn't look right, see for yourself:

LOW RES images:
Injector #4 image A
Injector #4 image B
Injector #4 image C

HI RES Versions (same as above, just bigger w/ more detail of the ulginess)
Injector #4 image A
Injector #4 image B
Injector #4 image C

I'm guessing that the injector shouldn't be rusty on the end. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img]

Also, with regards to image C, In theory, where I've labeled "Nothing", there realy shouldn't be any fluids there if all the seals are working correctly, yes?

Tomorrow I'll pull the remaining 7 injectors, and see how they look. All the while cussing the previous owner for failure to change the oil on a regular interval. It's really sludgy under the valve cover area, I just hope no permanent damage to the rest of the motor has been done. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/vomit.gif[/img]

Also, since the injector is rusty, I'm guessing the odds of this one working as-is are pretty low. I guess that's a good enough excuse for a new set of injectors?

That't all for now, more later.
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Old 07-31-2005, 08:31 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel Injector cup replacement, Was FPR surprise

[ QUOTE ]
James,

If your doing one, do them all, at least on that head. I doing the change right now. My motor is on a stand.


[/ QUOTE ]

I wish mine was, but I'll work with what I've got..

[ QUOTE ]

I checked around for purchase the tools.....$450 [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img]

I then tried to borrow some, and had somebody that was goning to borrow thiers after they had done some heads in their shop. I just couldn't wait anymore and I made my own.


[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like I'll be following in your footsteps. How hard was it to slide hammer out the old injector cup? I ask as I have access to a Lathe, and may just turn me a 1-1/4x18 threaded tap out of mild steel (assuming mild steel is strong enough to hold onto the cup and remove it)

Otherwise, yea, looks like I see an 1-1/4x18 tap in my future..

[ QUOTE ]

I got the new injector sleeves from Dale Lakin @ Powerstrokeshop.com , about $9ea. You will also need injector o-rings for the injectors you remove, again $8-9 each. The Loc-Tite 620 is the recommended, about $12-15 for a small bottle.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing you called Dale directly? I'll place an order in the AM, and start getting parts heading my way.

[ QUOTE ]

You also need a good stiff wire brush with a flat end to clen the bottom of the bore before you install the new sleeve. Here's a good link www.nav-international.com.br/manual_i/powerStroke/cap_e10.asp


[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] WOW what a great web find! Thank you, what a great resource!

[ QUOTE ]

If you buy a 1 1/4"-18 tap I'll gladly send you the other things I made to pull these. www.jlindustrial.com they list the tap for about $70

Oh, and I made a driver to seat the new sleeves.


[/ QUOTE ]

Did you turn something on a lathe, or just use what was handy? Any Pictures? (I can web host them if you need a place, just email me)

OH, btw, I also need a new plastic coolant resevoir. Mine cracked at 11psi on the way to 15psi for a pressure test. Anyone have a part number for this thing? I checked Napa, etc, and no joy. I'm hoping it's not a dealer only part....

Thanks again for the great info and references!
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Old 07-31-2005, 08:34 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel Injector cup replacement, Was FPR surprise

[ QUOTE ]
I was making coolant with the white truck before it blew, it is a pain to do it on the truck, to be safe if I were to do thsi again, I would remove both heads , unless you can find which side it si and take it to a shop to have them done. It needs to sit for 24 hours before you fire it up.
I had replaced all on one side hopeign that I had it right, as one had gone before, I was wrong ans cost me large.

[/ QUOTE ]

What side head did you do? (I'm guessing driver's side..)

Did you find any evidance of a leak, or rusty injectors like mine?

What happened in the end, the motor hydrolock? Was it from changing the cups, or from not changing the right cups?

Sorry to hear of your loss, I hope I don't follow in your footsteps as well [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img]
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'97 F350 Dually, 5 Spd Manual, 4wd, regular cab, Cat_Gut, Bean's Stage 1 injectors. Pedal MOD, 6 Pos DP-Tuner switch chip, 3" down pipe from Bean, Gutted EBPV.

Smokin Video 1.2meg Windows Media Video <-Link Fixed

Current injector cup progress web-page
EBPV Gut Pics
http://lerch.no-ip.com/atm My telescope building web-site
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Old 08-01-2005, 07:25 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel Injector cup replacement, Was FPR surprise

About making a mild steel tap......tried that, didn't work. That brass is surprisingly difficult to tap in there, for whatever reason. The tap I borrowed was a bottom tap, someting with a little more lead would be better.

When I threaded the slide hammer adpater I looked up the pitch diameter in the Machinist's Handbook and cut it to the low side. Dang thing wouldn't thread into the tapped hole! So I made another, smaller yet, that one was tight but I got the sleeve out. Then I had a gauge to work with.

The brass cup must spring some as it's being tapped, or my borrowed tap is dull, because the pitch diameter ended up being -.010 under the low PD.

When you use the slide hammer, they come out pretty easily. But as Nit will tell ya, in frame you can't get a slide hammer to the rear cylinders, you need to fab up some spacers and shorter length of threaded rod.

If you're calling Dale for the sleeves, have him price a coolant bottle as well.

I'll send you some picture's of what I made....I made all of it on my CNC lathe, Okuma Cadet.
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Old 08-01-2005, 08:56 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel Injector cup replacement, Was FPR surprise

James,

With an injector looking that bad, you should see a big crack in the cup. You definetly need to replace all your o-rings, they are the old style and most likely leaking pretty good. If I had one that looked that bad, I would send it off to have it checked out. Could have internal damage.

By the time you pay for o-rings and injector rebuilds, you would be better off just ordering some new ones from swamp or bean. The price would be close to the same and you would have all new injectors, plus a little more power.
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Old 08-01-2005, 09:12 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel Injector cup replacement, Was FPR surprise

[ QUOTE ]
About making a mild steel tap......tried that, didn't work. That brass is surprisingly difficult to tap in there, for whatever reason. The tap I borrowed was a bottom tap, someting with a little more lead would be better.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, ok, so you tapped the cup first, removed the tap, then made a 1-1/4 inch threaded insert to screw into the tapped cup. Your slide hammer screwed into the metal insert, and you popped the cups out.

Perhaps I will take you up on your previous offer, and borrow your fabricated R&amp;R tooling.

Is there enough room in the injector cup for a 1-1/4-18 plug tap like this one:
JLindustrial PN TSP-21005K

I'll send you an email with my contact info.
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'97 F350 Dually, 5 Spd Manual, 4wd, regular cab, Cat_Gut, Bean's Stage 1 injectors. Pedal MOD, 6 Pos DP-Tuner switch chip, 3" down pipe from Bean, Gutted EBPV.

Smokin Video 1.2meg Windows Media Video &lt;-Link Fixed

Current injector cup progress web-page
EBPV Gut Pics
http://lerch.no-ip.com/atm My telescope building web-site
http://lerch.no-ip.com/ChangFa_Gen My hombrew 15KW diesel generator
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Old 08-01-2005, 09:34 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel Injector cup replacement, Was FPR surprise

[ QUOTE ]
James,

With an injector looking that bad, you should see a big crack in the cup.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's what has me nervous, as I don't see any crack or leaks into the #4 injector cup. I thought if it was leaking coolant this badly, it would at least seep coolant over night, but the cylinder is still dry.

Worse case, is I the failed cup is in another cylinder, and at shutdown, the pressursed coolant is leaking into the fuel rail, displacing the fuel and contaminating the rest of the injectors.

I've got to get the rest of those injectors out and have a look..

[ QUOTE ]

You definetly need to replace all your o-rings, they are the old style and most likely leaking pretty good. If I had one that looked that bad, I would send it off to have it checked out. Could have internal damage.

By the time you pay for o-rings and injector rebuilds, you would be better off just ordering some new ones from swamp or bean. The price would be close to the same and you would have all new injectors, plus a little more power.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, I've already made my mind up that rebuilt injectors are a must, I just hope my old ones will still work as cores. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/depressed.gif[/img]

I can't believe I drove this truck like this for 800 miles, and with the FPR spring removed it actually ran OK enough for me to think it was running normally, just a little low on power...


BTW, if I see this correctly, the last O-Ring on the injector actually seats inside the brass injector cup, yes?

Consequently the only seal that keeps fuel and coolant from mixing is the cup to head Friction fit / loc-tite seal, yes?
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'97 F350 Dually, 5 Spd Manual, 4wd, regular cab, Cat_Gut, Bean's Stage 1 injectors. Pedal MOD, 6 Pos DP-Tuner switch chip, 3" down pipe from Bean, Gutted EBPV.

Smokin Video 1.2meg Windows Media Video &lt;-Link Fixed

Current injector cup progress web-page
EBPV Gut Pics
http://lerch.no-ip.com/atm My telescope building web-site
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Old 08-01-2005, 10:40 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel Injector cup replacement, Was FPR surprise

James,

That tap will work fine. I've been using 4 turns on a bottom tap, you may have to grind some of the end off the plug tap if the lead is really long.

The sleeve comes out pretty easy, the Loc-Tite is real brittle.
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Old 08-01-2005, 01:49 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel Injector cup replacement, Was FPR surprise

once you crack the locktite the sleeve pops right out, but there is a centerign collar for teh tap as well, to do the rears I made a short threaded rod and spacers to pop it out, but hard to do.
Why I lost the motor later I do not know, it was still " making" coolant, 7&amp;8 blew out the rods at low speed, I think becasue I had to swap out the injectors 7+ times , at one point I slacked off and tweaked a rear rod and it finally let go.
I was very careful when installign my new Swamp Hybrids so it sounds fine now.
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Old 08-03-2005, 04:30 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel Injector cup replacement, Was FPR surprise

Finally, making progress.

Today I removed the remaining 7 injectors. Injector in cyl #2 has apparently been replaced, as it say's "REMAN" on the top, and looks different than all the others. Also, I found coolant in the #2 injector hole while evacuating the fluids.

Since my coolant tank is cracked, I took it out and plugged the large hose at the bottom, and fabricated an adapter to attach the small coolant hose at the top to the pressure tester. After a quick pressure test, I found a pretty substantial coolant leak in the #2 injector cup. Here's some pictures:

Cyl #2 Injector Cup, Image A
Cyl #2 Injector Cup, Image B
Cyl #2 Injector Cup, Image C

So I wonder, was the #2 injector replaced and damaged the cup OR was the #2 injector replaced in attempt to stop fuel leaking into the coolant passage (and vise versa)?

In any event, all the other injector cups look ok, with no signs of coolant leakage during the coolant pressure test. However I won't know for certain until I get the #2 cup replaced and repeat the pressure test.

OH, and I gotta give credit to Beans Diesel, I ordered stage 1 injectors on Monday and they arrived today! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I have to admit, it feels good to actually find a substantial problem, and have a plan on how to repair it. I'm getting kind of excited to see this thing running again!
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'97 F350 Dually, 5 Spd Manual, 4wd, regular cab, Cat_Gut, Bean's Stage 1 injectors. Pedal MOD, 6 Pos DP-Tuner switch chip, 3" down pipe from Bean, Gutted EBPV.

Smokin Video 1.2meg Windows Media Video &lt;-Link Fixed

Current injector cup progress web-page
EBPV Gut Pics
http://lerch.no-ip.com/atm My telescope building web-site
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Old 08-03-2005, 04:34 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Fuel Injector cup replacement, Was FPR surprise

[ QUOTE ]
Why I lost the motor later I do not know, it was still " making" coolant, 7&amp;8 blew out the rods at low speed, I think becasue I had to swap out the injectors 7+ times , at one point I slacked off and tweaked a rear rod and it finally let go.

[/ QUOTE ]

What "Rods" went south, the push rods or connecting rods?
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'97 F350 Dually, 5 Spd Manual, 4wd, regular cab, Cat_Gut, Bean's Stage 1 injectors. Pedal MOD, 6 Pos DP-Tuner switch chip, 3" down pipe from Bean, Gutted EBPV.

Smokin Video 1.2meg Windows Media Video &lt;-Link Fixed

Current injector cup progress web-page
EBPV Gut Pics
http://lerch.no-ip.com/atm My telescope building web-site
http://lerch.no-ip.com/ChangFa_Gen My hombrew 15KW diesel generator
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