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Not running after injector service. faulty map, pcm ?

4K views 26 replies 6 participants last post by  Aussie Bob 
#1 · (Edited)
Hey big brain people, Its Bob here from Australia, I am asking for some help please with my 1997 4x4 7.3 power stroke.
Has traveled 400,000 kilometers .
I have just changed the injector cups and had the injectors serviced.
After a no start situation ( three days of cranking )diagnosed an injector cup not seated all the way ( 1 mm or so high on the straight edge test )and removed and replaced it. Got it running rough and went for a drive to bleed the air out of the high pressure oil. It stopped 1 kilometer into the drive. It took 12 hours of cranking and started at 4 am and about 12 degrees outside temperature , and got it home. Next day got it started and raced at 2000 rpm for 20 minutes in the drive way, still had a or some miss fires after that. Decided to drive around the block and it stopped again after three loops. Checked the codes they are P0107 P0603 P0470 P0237 I found the MAP signal wire non conductive and repaired, then it threw codes as before + P0238 ( 5 codes in total ) When cleared they immediately appear. Tried also to disconnect the batteries for 15 minutes to clear the codes but this made no difference.
Have replaced injector and glow plug harness also. Tested the harness from the ICM plug and rocker cover plugs and was all good.
Taco moves when cranking so is the crank position censer ruled out ?
I am wondering if the pcm or icm are toast ?
The map wires could have shorted out, There was no plug when I got the truck just the wires connectors pushed on to the map socket prongs. I have since soldered the wires to the map as am unable to find the correct plug. Map tested ok after this (1.5-1.6 volts ).
I am getting 1.5-1.6 volts at the signal wire of the map when engine is off, appears to be working.
Need some help please.
 
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#2 ·
Maybe check to see if the PCM is outputting the 5V reference signal at pin 90 of the PCM. You should also be able to check it at any of the sensors that use it (BARO, MAP, TPS, EBP, ICP, and CPS ... Brown wire with White Stripe). Cheers!
 
#3 ·
Thanks for that Patrick,
The weather is bad in the states, saw on tv the ice problems, take care guys.
The pcm is getting a signal from the map, wether the pcm is in good order I don't know as it is giving codes p0237 which is a map problem and p0238 which is an map over boots code but has been no where near over boost. The map is outputting 1.5 volts when ignition on no crank. I am looking for the baro still as it is a right hand drive conversion and 40 degrees today, will find and test it tomorrow.
I was able to start the truck today and get it off the street , after two days of cranking. It had several miss fires and after warming up for 5 minutes stoped it self from a 2500rpm raced idol. Checked the codes when it stopped and there were p0107 p0603 p0344 p0470 p0237 p0238
I pulled the crank position sensor and got a 2 homes reading from pin 1 and 3 Is this normal. Couldn't do a crank test as it was to hard to put clips too. I will order a new one as they can be problematic but cheap to replace.
I was reading on a forum that miss fires may not let the map calibrate. wether this is my problem I don't know ?
One of the codes is a crank position sensor one , was reading it could be due to long cranking but when cleared it immediately returns before craning ?
So the truck has stopped on the side of the road 1 kilometre into its trip 2 out of 2 times ( when reaching operating temp )since the injector service, and stopped one out of two times when at race idol.
Any ideas what this could be ?
 
#4 · (Edited)
Bob, Here's what I think:

1) I'm not 100% certain what the straight-edge test is, but I assume you are measuring from the head casting down to the cup - ??? For that to be accurate, several things would have to have been manufactured perfectly and I doubt that that happens - ever. If you measured to within 1mm, I'd have called that good.

2) I don't think a slightly-leaking injector cup would cause a no-start - or even a hard start. White smoke maybe...hydrolock maybe...but not a [non-hydrolock] no-start. Something else is/was causing the no-start.

3) From what you've described, you haven't been able to run it long enough to have removed all the air from the oil system, so now you are dealing with two issues - the original no-start problem and [now] air in the oil system.

If you brought it to me and asked me to look at it, the first thing I would do is replace the Cam Position Sensor. Then I would check the fuel pressure at crank speed.

If fp checked out, I'd unplug the ICP and try to start it. If no change, I would put a pressure gauge on a high pressure oil line, crank it and see what pressure I was building (should be around 750 psi).

Then I'd put battery voltage to the IPR and crank it (with key off). I would expect to see 3000 psi or so.

All this would take about 1 hour and not cost much $$

If I got the pressures mentioned above, only then would I start looking for the code-indicated electrical problems. If I did not get those pressures, I'd be looking for the reason why.

---

I'm not aware of a Crank Position Sensor on this engine.
 
#5 ·
Thanks for that Kimber,
The straight edge was used on top of the row of four injectors to see if they were all bottomed, one cup although sounding bottomed when driven was not. I had hpo in the exhaust.
Sorry about the "crank position sensor" my bad, meant cam position sensor.
Will try all your suggestions tomorrow and report back thankyou.
 
#6 ·
Wow on the straight edge test. Just going thru it in my head: the injector has machined parts bolted to cast parts, the copper washer is a stamped part designed to crush, the cup is a stamped piece of soft metal, the head is a crude but machined casting...throw in (potentially) different manufacturers, run dates, lot numbers...and Ford expects four of these assemblies to stack up to 4 thousandths of an inch??? I'm surprised they're within an eighth of an inch :) LOL, that just shows what I know!

Oil in the exhaust does not sound good, and I don't see how a lifted cup (or a loose injector) could cause that - I hope someone can chime in and explain it to me.

Good luck and keep us posted
 
#7 ·
Hey Kimber,
I had oil in the exhaust when one injector was a bit high due to the injector cup being a bit high, I think the hpo was slipping past an o ring not in its proper place. After re-seating the high injector cup , no more oil in exhaust and a start, that was my first start after the injector service That's what my brain has come up with.
Have ordered a cam position sensor today, has to come from the states (oem one ) as they are $150 here ( Parts guys have that one sown up ), so this could take 10 days to get here.
I will be checking sensors today as Patrick recommended.
I will put the new cps ( when it arrives) in and start from there and check the other items as Kimber recommended.
Thanks Guys, will get back when there is something new.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Would anyone know what this is please ?
 
#10 ·
That is the Water-In-Fuel (WIF) module. It is basically a solid-state switch for the Water In Fuel circuit. It is different than the actual WIF sensor that is on the fuel bowl. Cheers!
 
#11 ·
Thanks again Patrick, you shore have the big brain happening ....am still looking for the BARO sensor , looked all around the drivers foot well and under the dash with no joy yet..... am going to google the wire colours to help..... there is a cylindrical thing on the steering Colum..... maybe that is a steering position sensor ?
Got a pressure gauge that goes to 3600 psi, with the correct thread to check the HPO. Do I need to check both banks ? will check that after the cam position sensor arrives.
Thanks Guys.
 
#12 · (Edited)
I found this socket under the steering column. The wire colours are the same as the baro sensor yet there is no sensor plugged in to it. this is how I brought the truck 6 moths ago, with no baro sensor. Do you think this is one of my problems ? Does any one have a good Baro sensor they could sell me please:smile2: ?
Also TPS and Baro are putting out 5volts at brown white wire.
 
#13 ·
#14 · (Edited)
I just checked on Fordparts.com and your truck calls for a Motorcraft PN DY-714. Lists for $97 sell for ~$50 from Autonation Ford White Bear Lake (site sponsor). The listing also says the connector is a round 4-position similar to your picture (Motorcraft WPT-169) You can compare using this link: http://www.fordservicecontent.com/pubs/content/connectors/images/connectorcatalog.pdf
Although if the whole PN (prefix -base-suffix) matches, then it MIGHT work.


Sure looks like someone may have removed your BARO sensor for some reason.
 
#15 ·
Thank for that Klhansen,
I have ordered the Baro sensor today, will take about 1-2 weeks to get here.
Nothing amazes me about this truck. The day I drove it home when purchased it was a 700km drive. It's ball joints and drag link were all worn out to the extent that I was in fear of steering failure the whole trip. All uni-joints on front diff flopping, leaking read diff , leaking steering box.,no fan motor, no air con condenser etc. etc. etc. About the only thing the previous owner did was change the oil regularly.
Thanks for your wise advice, will update when parts arrive.
 
#16 ·
check the large harness that goes over the drivers side valve cover - if that's loose or has a compromised wire it would lead to the truck shutting off randomly and having a hard time starting. I'd also check any other wiring connections that could have been disturbed during the injector service as it sounds like this problem began after the service?
 
#17 ·
Hey guys,
Have put in a missing baro (there was not one in the truck just an empty socket) sensor and a new oem cam position sensor ( old one seamed to be working). now I have codes P0470, which is" Exhaust Back Pressure Sensor Circuit Malfunction" and P0237 which is map low impute ( three less codes than before), reappearing instantly after being cleared. This would lead me to believe the EBPS may be bad and the map might have it polarity reversed. My map sensor does not have a plug and I have solder the wires to the prongs. Someone drew a + and - which were in contradiction to what I believed to be the correct volts output. Contradicting the polarity drawn on the map sensor I got 1.6 volts ignition on engine off and ( the way I solder in ) and agreeing with polarity I got over 3 volts with the same conditions. I will try reversing to see if the code P0237 clears. I have ordered a new EBPS with out testing the old one but will clean the pipe, sensor and check the wiring tomorrow and start from there.
I want to test the high pressure oil. My question is , do I need to test both sides ? When I crank it sounds like it is firing on one bank of four, please remember I have just serviced the injectors and changed the injector cups and not driven the truck but raced the idle for twenty minutes.
Would you know what and were the ICP and IPR are as I will next follow the recommended diagnostics Kimber1911 suggested.
Have changed the engine oil as well, was not over due.
Thanks Bob.
 
#18 ·
ok there is a page two.....Sorry for the long delay . Thanks for that greenskeeper.....I have new valve cover harnesses solder in , I have tested the plugs from the IDM plug and valve cover plugs and all are clean. The valve cover plugs are new but seam ok in there connections.
Thanks Bob.
 
#19 · (Edited)
I checked fuel and HPO today have 0 fuel pressure while cranking and 3000 psi of HPO. I used a tyre inflator to check the fuel pressure. Would that work ? Checked a tyre after the fuel and got a good reading from the tyre. There was some diesel in the tyre inflator so I believe the valve on the fuel bowl was depressed and I have zero fuel pressure. What could this be ?
Thanks Bob P.S. The picture is of the tyre inflator.
 
#20 ·
A tire pressure gauge is as good as any for testing fp.

No fuel pressure can be caused by a number of things. I would check these things, and in this order:

1) Fuel level in the tanks - needs to be half full or more. The fuel pickup tubes on these trucks can crack/break and you'll run out of fuel somewhere around 1/4 tank.

2) Disconnect the two flexible fuel lines at the frame - by the steering gearbox. Extend the larger of the two lines with a hose and run that into a jerry can with fuel in it. Crank the engine. if you build pressure, your problem is somewhere from that point back.

If return fuel is coming out strong but you have no pressure, you likely have a fuel pressure regulator hung open. If you block that fuel stream with your thumb, you should be able to build some pressure. Rebuild the FPR.

If there is no pressure and no return fuel, replace the fuel pump.

NOTE: The plunger on the fuel pump can fall out and drop into the crankcase. When you unbolt the fuel pump, turn the engine over BY HAND with a breaker bar on the crankshaft bolt. This will allow the camshaft to push the fuel pump up and out of the block. Leave the cam lobe in the high position. If you drop the plunger, the cam lobe will prevent it from falling into the crankcase.
 
#21 · (Edited)
3000 psi is way more than required for starting the engine. I would be suspicious of a bad ICP or bad IPR.

On the positive side, 3000 psi tells me you have good injector o-rings, poppets, IPR o-rings, HPOP, and pressure relief valve.

I'd suggest you not spend any more time (or money) on anything until you resolve the fuel pressure issue. The fuel system has no sensors anywhere, so your scanner is of no value.

Edited to add: No, at this point you do not need to test the oil pressure on the heads individually, though that is a very effective and telling test procedure. Any leak in the high pressure oil system will drop the pressure system-wide.
 
#22 ·
Thanks Kimber, hasn't Christmas snuck up.....I will check these things after the big jolly guy had been . Merry X mass guys.
Bob
 
#23 · (Edited)
Ok These are the results of three tests Mr Kimber and friends;( Fuel lines at steering box are both the same size and the female side of the plugs are on the engine side. This would make it very difficult to extend unless I have a pipe end. Any way I have a filter separator under the cab on the rail. I tested from there, my brain could handle that).
1. Supply line into a container of fuel . When cranking (injector fuse removed) the fuel did not flow through the hose (clear hose). It travelled two inches and then back. I cranked for 30 seconds and fuel only travelled two inches. There was a dribble from the return line .
2.I put 35psi of air up the supply line to check for leaks. No leaks detected and I got a torrent of fuel from the return line.
3. I pumped the bulb at the filter separator ( after market). No leaks were detected and some fuel flowed from the return line.
OK I am thinking my pump is toast. I am thinking of a banjoe block ( ) and a 99-03 electric fuel pump setup using the original fuel bowl, filter and regulator. If I use this pump system would you locate the electric pump in the same position as the mechanical pump and not on the chassis rail under the truck ?
Thankyou for reading my post guys,
Bob.
 
#24 ·
and a 99-03 electric fuel pump setup using the original fuel bowl, filter and regulator. If I use this pump system would you locate the electric pump in the same position as the mechanical pump and not on the chassis rail under the truck ?
Thankyou for reading my post guys,
Bob.
I can't say where I would mount the pump without studying it first.

To be honest, I would just put it all back stock. B*stardized systems are difficult, expensive, and time-consuming if you ever need to have someone else work on it. Sourcing parts for something like that can be a real nightmare. Many mechanics would not work on it.

I didn't like the banjo block. If that ever starts leaking, Ebay might be the only place you'll ever find a replacement. Plus, I saw nothing holding it in place. Seems to me the metal fuel lines would be more prone to fatigue/crack.

I can't see that you'll gain much by jacking the fuel pressure up to 60+ psi - I could be wrong on that. Maybe it will help shove more fuel into the cylinders, I don't know.

The mechanical fuel pump is not something you need to change very often. You probably need to rebuild your fuel bowl and IPR anyways, so do all of it at the same time and you'll be good to go for another 15 years.
 
#25 ·
Thanks for that Kimber, yes your right there is only one guy on eBay selling them. I will order the OEM mechanical fuel pump on Thursday from the states and let you know how it goes.
Thanks .....Bob
 
#26 ·
Dang! You really should start a business down there selling 7.3l parts!

I don't know if dieselo-rings.com ships to Aussieland, but it would be worth looking into. He will have every part you need to rebuild the ipr, the fuel bowl, fpr, as well as a genuine ford pump.

Good luck and let's hope this solves your problem.
 
#27 ·
Thanks for that Kimber...... 1997 7.3l are not common out hear. They were only privately imported and all had to be converted to right hand drive.
Yes diesel-rings.com has a nice selection and do export to Australia....
thanks
Bob
 
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