I ordered the DIY Stage I injector kit! Have questions - Diesel Forum

Jerry Miller · 01-10-2007, 09:43 PM

After all my talk that I would never mod my injectors.....I'm doing it! I was wondering about the 160s from people that have anyone's 160 injectors. I am running a single program chip from Bill. He had advertised it as his 75HP chip at the time. I am planning to just keep this chip for now. Also, I do not tow anything with my truck and I'm running 35" tires with 3.55 gears. With that said, here are my questions:
1. If I drive sanely (rarely happens) will my fuel mileage stay about the same for normal driving? I get 15-16town/18-19hwy now.
2. I have a LUK SMFW clutch. It is their standard one...nothing special....with 40,000 miles on it. Should I be okay with this as long as I don't do fully throttle take offs all the time?
3. Since I am running a single program chip, will smoke be a huge issue under normal driving? I love smoke, but around town I NEED to keep a low profile. I am straight piped so I don't get on it too hard in town anyway.
4. I assume my stock HPOP should be good enough...am I correct assuming mine is in good condition.
5. Last question. If I remove the chip, I assume these injectors will flow the stock amount of fuel just like Swamp's babies. Is this correct? That way IF emission testing ever comes my way.
Thanks guys,
Jerry

Danzo1197 · 01-10-2007, 11:19 PM

Hey Jerry. I did the DIY Stage I kit a couple of months ago and am very pleased with the results. The following is my $0.02 worth...

1. If you can keep your foot from being too heavy you should get about the same mpg...in fact mine went up about 2 mpg when I drive "sane" in the tow setting on my Wildman chip.

2. My Luk SMFW has about half the mileage of yours and I haven't had any problems so far. Something to consider though is that I am running stock size tires...

3. I have a 4 position Wildman chip and only have heavy smoke when I am hard into the throttle. I have found that if I keep the boost under 10# in the tow position I have almost no smoke.

4. I have had a CEL due to oil issues only once since the injectors and chip were installed...had to see what the ol' girl would do [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Again, this is what I found after doing my injectors and chip. I can't say for sure that your results will be the same but you won't be sorry for modding your injectors...I wish I would have done mine sooner.

Jerry Miller · 01-10-2007, 11:25 PM

Thanks for the reply. I assume your CEL was set during a full throttle extended run at "rather" high speed? I appreciate the info, especially about the clutch. I'm sure my tires and gearing will compound any weakness in a stock LUK setup, but hopefully I'll be able to control the right foot. I toyed with only going up to 130, but I figure if I'm in there already I might as well go as far as I can without doing other major mods.
Thanks again!
Jerry

Deib · 01-11-2007, 12:32 AM

I did the stage 1's and still figuring it out. I have a banks 40hp chip.
Fuel mileage went down. I kind of think maybe the chip was programmed for 90cc per squirt and now I am getting 160cc per squirt. I would assume to get the most out of the fuel it should go in a little sooner? Maybe a little higher oil pressure?

Black smoke is not much worse, but I did the IDM mod at the same time, not sure how that may effect it.

Difference with 160's over stock with same programming, not a huge difference in power, so I think I have a lack of programming, boost and egt's are way up.

With my little chip I cannot set the CEL light, but with the right programming your HPOP is not enough to keep from setting the light, but sounds like that is only in the extreme setting.

Stock programming will still flow more fuel. The whole point of the kit is to increase flow without programming. Like I said earlier, a stock injector is what 90cc per squirt, and the stage one is 160cc per squirt. That is more fuel no matter what the programming is. How that effects emissions I have no idea.

trick76cj5 · 01-11-2007, 01:09 AM

Just a heads up, 90cc injectors don't squirt 90cc per squirt, the injector displacemente is measure over a defined number of injector cycles, not pivotal, just a heads up. As far as economy, you are going from singles to singles, economy shouldn't change so long as you keep your foot out of the go pedal, that's the nice thing about diesels, they are fuel controlled. As far as smoke goes, keep the same nozzles and keep your foot out and you should be fine, but put her to the floor and I'll bet you can create a cloud behind you. If oil pressure becomes an issue you can upgrad to the 99.5 and later sd pump and that should be more than enough to run the injectors, but your pump should be sufficient for the time being. I know the stock ad code sd injectors are good for about 340 to the rear wheels, from what i've heard 360 or so is feasible with stage I's and the proper supporting mods. Oh, and as far as emissions goes, it's really gonna depend on how they test. In Ohio they ran the truck to 25mph and put it in top gear, then accelerated to another set speed. They checked the opacity of the exhaust to determine if i had too much particulate matter in my exhaust. A selectable chip w/a low power level should help this out and you should be fine (stock sd's come w/140cc's), but it's ran by people so it's all gonna depend on how they run it.

UNLIMITED_DIESEL · 01-11-2007, 06:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Stock programming will still flow more fuel. The whole point of the kit is to increase flow without programming. Like I said earlier, a stock injector is what 90cc per squirt, and the stage one is 160cc per squirt. That is more fuel no matter what the programming is. How that effects emissions I have no idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

No...It wont...A stock AA code injector will only flow 73.8cc's of fuel on the stock programming. it will only flow 98.94cc's of fuel if your chip is programmed to max pulse width. the amount of fuel entering in the cylinder is dependent on Pulse Width and HPOP pressure. So if you put 160cc's injectors in your truck with no programming it will then still only flow 73.8cc's of fuel and deliver stock power. On the other hand if you aquire a chip that will deliver about 4.0ms or so of pulse width it should then flow the whole amount of fuel (160cc).

Stock is Stock no matter how much you grind off of the intensifier piston Deib. the stock Pulse width only allows the piston to move 2.77mm which only equals 78.3cc's of fuel no matter how you do the math. No programming = no extra fuel, unless you were to put an enlarged nozzle on the end, but even then you wont get the full benefit of the injector without programming.

thats just my 0.02 [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Jerry Miller · 01-11-2007, 07:32 PM

Thanks everyone. I doubled checked with Jim and stock programming with mild injectors (stock nozzle, etc) will act like stock injectors. This is what I thought but I wanted to make sure. It also is nice to know this so that if an injector ever went bad on a trip, that you could, in theory, plop a stock one in and pull the chip to get home and then mod the new injector.
Jerry

johndeerebones · 01-11-2007, 08:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
After all my talk that I would never mod my injectors.....I'm doing it! I was wondering about the 160s from people that have anyone's 160 injectors. I am running a single program chip from Bill. He had advertised it as his 75HP chip at the time. I am planning to just keep this chip for now. Also, I do not tow anything with my truck and I'm running 35" tires with 3.55 gears. With that said, here are my questions:
1. If I drive sanely (rarely happens) will my fuel mileage stay about the same for normal driving? I get 15-16town/18-19hwy now.
2. I have a LUK SMFW clutch. It is their standard one...nothing special....with 40,000 miles on it. Should I be okay with this as long as I don't do fully throttle take offs all the time?
3. Since I am running a single program chip, will smoke be a huge issue under normal driving? I love smoke, but around town I NEED to keep a low profile. I am straight piped so I don't get on it too hard in town anyway.
4. I assume my stock HPOP should be good enough...am I correct assuming mine is in good condition.
5. Last question. If I remove the chip, I assume these injectors will flow the stock amount of fuel just like Swamp's babies. Is this correct? That way IF emission testing ever comes my way.
Thanks guys,
Jerry

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Yes, I never drive sanely and that is roughly what I get now and before, only I don't have 35's, have you recalibrated your speedo? That seems liberal to me on 35's with our gears.

2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there standard clutch is only supposed to have stock holding power isn't it? If so no way, I only have a scmt with mine and I can slip the clutch basically at will, I am just babying it until I can "afford" one, not just spend the money and get one.

3. With a 75 horse program, which is roughly what my scmt on 3 is, but bills program shouldn't smoke as much. I would say smoke is controllable with your right foot, but lay the hammer down and you will probably be able to fog out both lanes pretty easily.

4. I would say no, a 17 degree hpop is needed, but you can get by fine with stock. Mine runs very well, but I can through the dreaded CEL if I want to.

5. Theoretically yes they will only flow stock fuel with no program, but this is still kinda up in the air. All I know is even stock mine runs much better and the only thing wrong with my injectors is I had three broken nozzle springs, other than that they were absolutely perfect. I even mic'd my plungers and compared to each other, all were very close, so if they are worn it is very even atleast.

Jerry Miller · 01-11-2007, 08:38 PM

JohnDeereBones,
Thanks. I have my speedo recalibrated. Those mpg readings are best case situations. I can do much worse. If my wife drives it....she can get a couple more mpg......don't know if she know the pedal on the right can go down that far. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]
Does it take a lot to set the CEL? I'm assuming you are on it hard for an extended time?
Luk claims the clutch is good for stock power. So I'm probably in trouble, but I never tow...ever. So if it is good for stock power towing 10,000 pounds. It ought to last at modified power not towing, if I don't get too crazy. Sounds like a good theory anyway!
Swamp actually rebuilt my injectors about 3 years ago to stock specs. So I'm hoping I won't find any surprises (broken/worn parts). I should have spent the money then and had him make me a set of Babies but I was leary of modded injectors then. It was a mystery of what all they did to them and I was worried if they went out of business or something and I needed a replacement that I would be out of luck. Luckily Swamp and others are doing quite well. Hindsight is 20/20.
I'm looking forward to this DIY kit!!!
Jerry

UNLIMITED_DIESEL · 01-11-2007, 09:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]

5. Theoretically yes they will only flow stock fuel with no program, but this is still kinda up in the air. All I know is even stock mine runs much better and the only thing wrong with my injectors is I had three broken nozzle springs, other than that they were absolutely perfect. I even mic'd my plungers and compared to each other, all were very close, so if they are worn it is very even atleast.

[/ QUOTE ]

By fixing the three broken nozzle springs that would certainly make your truck run better, and as for the plungers and barrels...they are measured in .0001", and they are lapped each plunger to each barrel. even a little bit of difference can make a big difference.

Again, Stock is Stock. If you have a stock set of injectors and you take them apart, machine the intensifier piston and put them back together, they will still flow the stock amount of fuel on the stock programming because you did not do anything to make it fire longer. Just because you have allowed for more travel does not mean that you are getting it. The injector still has .77mm to travel as a stock AA injector with stock tuning. it isnt until you put programming in the computer until you reach the full 3.5mm travel, thus by machining the intensifier piston 2.16mm you will not achieve the full potential (61.06cc's)of that injector until you have enough Pulse Width or "on time" of the injector to move the Piston to Inject the fuel that you desire. It will never happen with stock tuning and stock nozzles. Ever. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

johndeerebones · 01-12-2007, 08:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
JohnDeereBones,
Thanks. I have my speedo recalibrated. Those mpg readings are best case situations. I can do much worse. If my wife drives it....she can get a couple more mpg......don't know if she know the pedal on the right can go down that far. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]
Does it take a lot to set the CEL? I'm assuming you are on it hard for an extended time?
Luk claims the clutch is good for stock power. So I'm probably in trouble, but I never tow...ever. So if it is good for stock power towing 10,000 pounds. It ought to last at modified power not towing, if I don't get too crazy. Sounds like a good theory anyway!
Swamp actually rebuilt my injectors about 3 years ago to stock specs. So I'm hoping I won't find any surprises (broken/worn parts). I should have spent the money then and had him make me a set of Babies but I was leary of modded injectors then. It was a mystery of what all they did to them and I was worried if they went out of business or something and I needed a replacement that I would be out of luck. Luckily Swamp and others are doing quite well. Hindsight is 20/20.
I'm looking forward to this DIY kit!!!
Jerry

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you have to be hard on it into the upper rpm range-2800 up to use enough oil to set it, but then again I am only running a scmt with 5.6k, no way I am calling for every bit of fuel.

As for the clutch I rarely tow heavy, before injectors looking through the inspection plate my clutch was stock thickness, not worn much at all, and it won't hold worth a darn, even empty.

PSDan000 · 01-13-2007, 02:26 AM

my mileage went up about 1-2 mpg after doing the DIY injectors driving sane, but most of the time its way down bc my foot is always in it. people told me i would blow up my stock E4OD in a week, but its lasted about 15k miles now...it hates me, and it slips like hell when i get on it, but it still works, and i can spank all the dodges that talk crap about my old ford. with your programming, it will still be fairly mild. i ran a 75hp tune in my truck for awhile on my buddies chip with 150's and it was ok, and smoke wasnt too bad. i doubt you will be able to throw a CEL with that chip though, but who knows. i have only thrown a couple getting on it really hard. anyway, good luck to ya, i actually enjoyed doing mine knowing i was saving myself a lot of money. if you wanna get a feel for whats involved check out my webshots i got some pics.

Jerry Miller · 01-13-2007, 06:32 PM

Thanks everyone. Guess I'll start thinking about another clutch.

Jerry

jasonlambert · 01-13-2007, 07:34 PM

i have a twildman chip and in extreme i can set a cel and i have a 17* hpop. i have to get on it but it will. i have even set a cel in economy, course i was going 90mph up a big hill and it took quite a while but it did it [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif[/img]. you will be fine with your chip as far as cels and the smoke should not be bad, course that depends on the right foot. have fun with them things!!!

tatipton · 01-14-2007, 05:04 PM

Yes, start saving for a South Bend OFE! If you have the LUK flywheel you can keep it with the South Bend and just get the clutch. $200 savings!
My LUK went out at 40K with a 6-pos chip, 4.10's and 35's and I tow a lot and not too easy on it. VERY happy with the SB/OFE, would never have anything else now.