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7.3L IDI starters...

33K views 45 replies 17 participants last post by  savinfuel 
#1 ·
Hey fellas,

Has anyone tried out those "Mean Green Gear Reduction Starters"... I am suffering from a lack of quality supply starter motors.. I have tried the nippondenso, mitsubishi, acdelco; and all have failed lacking enough cranking power to turn at least 900rpms that are neccessary to start up my truck.. Right now I have a starter from pepboys in my truck that's only turning about 300rpms.. never going to work for me.. Any suggestions.. I am soo tired of buying junk parts for this thing.. Let me know if anyone has a favorite quality starter brand, with good experience and durability. Thanks :ford:
 
#2 ·
I suggest you check your battery cables. The mitsubishi starter should start the truck just fine, let alone the nippondenso "heavy duty" starter as used by CASE and others. I have the nippondenso and it would start my truck for a long time after the batteries and cables started to go. My truck always tended to start up after a rev or two and then I replaced my batteries with new wally world specials (850s for what everyone else wanted for 650s, so I swallowed my pride and bought them) and now it still starts in a rev or two but it sure spins faster.

With that said, if all the starters you buy were rebuilt by morons, they could have all been bad, I guess. But if you have installed several (why did you even try the acdelco? that's the old one) then I suspect the problem lies in your electrical system.
 
#3 ·
as said above you clearly have an issue other then the starter.
 
#5 ·
yeah, that's the other thing I was wondering about, forgot to mention though. my truck doesn't need 900 rpm to start. maybe 180 or something best case :) It was seriously slow there for a while, but it kept starting so I kept putting off doing anything about it, and then it turned out to be my cables. Which means I got lucky; low voltage can burn out a starter! I never was prone to extended cranking, though, with a hard and fast ten second rule, and again I do have the heavy duty denso starter.
 
#6 ·
I 2nd the suggestion to check your batteries and battery cables. When I put new battery cables on it made a world of difference in how well my truck started. If you are willing to spend a little extra there is a guy that custom makes heavy duty cables for our trucks:

Heavy Duty Battery Cables

I quit buying starters from the part stores. I find I get a much nicer/stronger starter by taking it to a good old fashioned starter / alternator rebuild shop. Then I know all the wear items are new and replaced, unlike the crud most auto-part stores now sell that come from Mexico that only had the 'bad' part replaced, cleaned and painted. My experience has been if they offer a 'lifetime' warranty, run away, because you will be replacing the darn thing every time you turn around for the rest of your life.
 
#7 ·
I quit buying starters from the part stores. I find I get a much nicer/stronger starter by taking it to a good old fashioned starter / alternator rebuild shop. Then I know all the wear items are new and replaced, unlike the crud most auto-part stores now sell that come from Mexico that only had the 'bad' part replaced, cleaned and painted.
Couldn't agree more. I learned that years ago working in truck shops. It especially applies to injection pumps too. We sent the local IP shop pumps from every type diesel powered truck, Cat dozers, loaders, you name it, and for about 16 years we never had a comeback. Then we got a know-nothing shop foreman that decided to go the production line rebuild route, about half of everything got sent back.
 
#8 ·
Thankyou gentlement for the input... I have 2 new optima gel cell batteries, one yellow top, and one red top, along with brand new battery cables, with new ends crimped on them.. So I know I am not suffering from a cable issue.. LIke I say, the high torque nippondenso style starter motor gave out on me within a month, but of course that was an ebay special from the same company that sells the piece of junk glow plug controllers that never last... And yes, the general autoparts store replacements loose their cranking power after like 2 days, so those are all junk... I have a mean green starter now, that supposedly has like 5 stainless steel bearing in it, and a gigantic case that houses the motor; but I can't fit the cotton pickin' thing in the engine compartment to mount the turkey... The way they designed this model starter motor according to the manufacturer it only mounts one-way, and people that have called in the past have suffered from difficulties mounting the motor on even a stock vehicle... Sheeeesh... To me, it looks like I am going to have to hack away at my frame now just to get this thing in there... NOt a happy camper over here... :ford:
 
#9 ·
mix matched batteries? There's part of a problem right there, the batteries should be identical to each other! fyi they are agm not gell.
 
#10 ·
You cant run that battery combo, they will not charge evenly, the red is a starting battery and the yellow is a deep cycle, when one reaches peak charge the other is still low.
ALSO the new optimas SUCK. I had old ones in my sandrail and a jeep, 7-8 years, now the new ones hav needed to be warrenteed 3 times in 3 years, one was bad right off the shelf.
Get different batteries then report back.

I have been using DB electrical starters and they have performed well. On Heavy equipment and the trucks.
 
#11 ·
The yellow top is brand new, 7 years ago... Bought it back then for a project... Never used it... I charge both batteries to a full charge seperately, and then begin to try and start the truck... I enjoy all of the bad mouthing on this site... Thanks for your attitute to those who believe they have an easy fix to my wording... One of those things I guess... But until you deal with it yourself, and know every last bit of the engine in question; then you can get a better scope of the overall delema... Thanks to those with the knowledge of correction, and willingness to share... But I'm chuckling because of the original reason for posting... Now I have started a thread going off on an un-necessary tangent. :thumbsup::ford:
 
#12 ·
troubleddiesel, your last post seems like you're getting aggravated by peoples' advice. they're trying to help. i think the point is- if you're having problems with starters, your problem might not be the starter. FWIW I've had a DB Electrical new ND style unit on my truck for a year or so and it's been perfect.

Starters like the 'mean green' units are usually indexable- you can usually bolt the snout to the case in several different positions, so you pick the orientation that makes installation easiest. I'd look into that carefully before I remotely considered notching my frame to clear a giant fancy starter that I may or may not even need.

Be patient with the people who give you mediocre advice. They're the price you pay for the help you can get on the forums.
 
#13 ·
But until you deal with it yourself, and know every last bit of the engine in question; then you can get a better scope of the overall delema
Come on now, there's nothing special about your setup that's causing you to have problems that won't be fixed by the same common repair practices that work on everything else. You said you have brand new cables, the odds of EVERY starter you've put on being junk are astronomically slim (I replace dozens of starters per year and even Wilson rebuilds aren't THAT bad), and you have mismatched batteries that drain and charge completely differently. Matched, identical batteries are a MUST, otherwise you'll be chasing starting & charging problems forever. I'd run a single battery before I ran mismatched ones.
 
#14 · (Edited)
You are talking to a guy who knows batteries very well, and I am telling you, your combo is garbage period, as others explained the charge discharge rates are different, secondly batteries wear out internal over time due to sulfation and other such nasties.

Deep cycles are designed from the core to be low amps long draw off time, a SLI is designed for massive current over a short draw off time, and what does a diesel need to start? Lets see glow plugs can suck a good 20 or better amps, starter will draw a good 150A at least, so lets say we need a sustained 200A for 15 seconds, that will not happen with a deep cycle!!!!

If your cabling is new then recheck the grounds, you need good solid metal to metal contact, second get some real batteries, Interstate with a cca of no less then 850, check to make sure the terminals and battery clamps are clean when you bolt them on the battery.

If this fails still yet, then you have a side issue cuasing your starting issues.

FYI I have field striped and rebuilt my starter behind a hotel after driving 450Km so I think I can say I know a wee bit about the starters here. on hot black top on a hot engine with unrelenting sun (I all most passed out from the heat <_<)
 
#15 · (Edited)
I don't know, the last Red Tops I had were still going strong after 7 years use. Also, there's been quite a few guys here through the years that had the same success with the Yellow Tops. But they, like myself, used two of the same kind.
.. Let me know if anyone has a favorite quality starter brand, with good experience and durability. Thanks :ford:
That would be the Mitsubishi or Nippondenso, they're more than adequate. My original Mitsubishi lasted me 19 years and over 200,000 miles before it needed an overhaul. Those Mean Green starters were the one and only answer for the 454 powered Chevy's common problem. When towing, the excessive engine heat would cause the factory and parts house starters to bind and groan and not crank fast enough to allow starting. But that's not the case with the Ford IDI engines.
 
#16 ·
I don't know, the last Red Tops I had were still going strong after 7 years use.
that is assuming proper maintance charging or they are in use, if left unattended even AGM batteries will suffer sulfation, mind you they do stand a better chance at recovering.
 
#18 ·
i just found this thread and yes the starters today are garbage, i have tried most high torque starters and stay away from cheaper ones. the napa starters die off quick.

bigest problem with starters is the solenoids. they fail almost garunteed and lock the starer in sometimes while going down the road. since the starters have a solenoid on them already theres no need for this "ford" fender solenoid.

i got a brand new $500 American made starter from a shop in Wisconsin. worked great till it decided to short out internally while parked and fried the starter solenoid and burnt up the wiring.

so i will be adding a inline fuse to starter. wire.

i can say batteries and cables are not a issue for me either as both are the same age and in good condition. also cables where rebuilt and in excellent condition and connections kept clean.

so i will turn back this thread to where it started,

is there any decent long life starters out there?

replacing a starter every 2 months 5 to 10k miles is getting annoying.
 
#19 ·
i got a brand new $500 American made starter from a shop in Wisconsin.
For the first couple years when these Ford diesel pickups came out in '83 or '84 they came from the factory with "American" Delco Remy starters. The failure rate was astronomical. FoMoCo soon switched to Mitsubishi and they pretty much last forever. As I posted above, my Mitsubishi starter (and solenoid) lasted well over 200,000 miles and 19 years before it needed an overhaul, and then the only component that was really worn out was the brushes which was to be expected. They also used Nippondenso's and they are also high quality. My fender-mounted solenoid DID fail not too long after I'd bought my pickup new in '91. The Mitsubishi starters have huge bearings and are heavy duty throughout. Another major component that enters into the equation is keeping your engine in tune so it starts quickly without grinding away minute after minute. With no problems with the fuel drainback system, good glow plugs, good batteries and everything right electrically these engines can sit for 3 weeks and start in 3 seconds when the temp is in the teens.
 
#43 · (Edited)
I second Mitsubishi quality, when I'm not driving my Ford I'm driving the Mitsubishi.... Burns 1.5 gallons per minute at 300kts (345MPH) may seem high but as turboprop aircraft goes its a Volkswagen. When I get back in my IDI 7.3 my mileage skyrockets. :)
 

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#20 ·
starters

the starter i have most luck with is Nipponese. but have had where i get 3 or 4 out of a box that dont work.

fender mount silinoids can no longer take the load they used to. i know a lot of people that have the burnout problem and just bypassed it all together.

i run a separate lift pump for cold starts and will use ether when its really cold and it fires up without issue. not a whole lot of cranking going on. just import garbage. i talked to a couple shops that rebuild starters and they stated and thru research found out when a starter core is sent in they only fix whats wrong, not a true "rebuild". so if a parts worn it will be the next to go.

i have a good starter which i am going to take to get rebuilt. hopefully then i can get past this problem.

i am running 850 cc batteries and also have noticed internationals ran 4 larger capacity batteries. for same engine. so after i get some time going to move batteries and add 2 more. 2 batteries will have more draw down at startup then 4.
 
#21 · (Edited)
i talked to a couple shops that rebuild starters and they stated and thru research found out when a starter core is sent in they only fix whats wrong, not a true "rebuild". so if a parts worn it will be the next to go.
I guess it depends on who you talk to. In every heavy truck shop I worked in we rebuilt all breeds of starters which included all bearings including the bronze endplate bushing, we turned the commutator and filed/cleaned between the segments, undercut the mica, new brushes, new starter drive (Bendix), and solenoid. The only components not replaced were the field windings, armature and housing (unless required). Any local independently owned auto/electric shop we ever dealt with did the same.
The only reason I did not rebuilt my own Mitsubishi is because the brushes are spot welded in and the rebuild shop recommended not to drill, tap and use small screws to retain them like I'd planned on doing. He did me a complete rebuild like I posted above and did NOT use DB electrical foreign crap. Total cost was $104, fair enough in my opinion. And as I posted above, brushes were the only component that were really shot.
 
#22 ·
You'reright, the only time I've ever seen more than mechanical parts and brushes wrong, is when some fool didn't know when to give up trying to get a dead starter to work.
 
#23 ·
so i will be adding a inline fuse to starter. wire.
If you mean the battery cable to starter, the fuse better be BIG, these starters pull anywhere from 500 Amps to 800 Amps just to get the engine to start rolling over depending ambient temp, cables and a whole lot of other things.
 
#24 · (Edited)
starters

as far as wiring,

the fender solenoids these days are garbage and like i said cant take the load and stress. at 1st i was using these. when they fail they lock open engaging the starter while driving. and it always happened while pulling up a hill, so couldn't stop. it would fry the starter and lead wire from solenoid.

Ford uses the same solenoid on the 460 engines and have had numerous problems with them also. basically bypass, put a inline fuse that cuts circuit, wire a kill switch or find a used one in a salvage yard from 90's

being the starters have a solenoid on them i just ran a toggle switch setup with a 14 gauge wire. this wasn't getting enough current to the starter so went to the 12 gauge that is used on international trucks with these engines.

this has all worked without problems with only the starters wearing down and giving up at random. i had the truck parked and the next morning noticed something burning when walking by. the starter itself shorted out internally without engaging motor and melted up thru the circuit to toggle. being that i have everything together in a harness it caused several problems. all of which are fixxed and this is a 1st time have seen a starter fail internally.

this is where i am adding a fuse. in the line between starter and toggle in engine compartment so if another starter fails it wont gt very far.

after pulling apart starter, motor is OK but it wont engage so it fried the lower part. and from prior problems i think most of the problem lies in the engaging part of starters and not in the motor itself. although the motors do get weak over time, that's a simple adjustment issue. brushes where worn after 2 months to the point the motor itself had a strong 1/16 to 1/8 movement side to side. which isn't good. *be careful if checking starter motors by themselves. being in a cattle pasture with limited tools, adding power to a "dead" motor isn't the best idea. mine was very much alive.

also a interesting note on this whole circuitry i have noticed is in after market setups, the alternator is tied to the battery and not the solenoid. with this setup it takes heat away from the solenoid from charging the batteries. my next endeavors when i get time and to a salvage yard is to redo the wiring harness, shorten and simplify and isolate the solenoid by itself to see if all other variables in these trucks being eliminated is enough to take stress off these weaker solenoids they make these days so they function without failure.

plus with what i am intending to do with this truck and others i have, it will be a be more international then ford. best of both.
 
#25 · (Edited)
That fender mounted solenoid is not technically a solenoid but it's actually a relay. And a relay by definition flows high amperage through it with heavy gauge wire to and from when triggered by a small amount of current through small gauge wire (the center post). All that fender mounted relay does when triggered by the small gauge middle wire is close two internal contact points sending current from the "always hot" big post to the other big post down to do nothing but activate the STARTER mounted solenoid causing it to engage its two lugs which allow battery cable juice to the starter motor causing it to rotate. The wiring to the relay and down to the solenoid is at least 10 or 8 gauge. If you eliminate that relay (solenoid if you prefer) you'll be using small 16-18 gauge primary wiring expecting it to carry the heavy load to the wire running down to the starter solenoid which would explain your burned wiring problems. My fender mounted relay DID go out the first year or so when I bought my pickup new but the Napa replacement has lasted me over 23 years. Others here have never complained that much about them either. There's a fuseable link (black with a yellow tracer?) in that area that was a real common failure.
 
#28 ·
Relay/silenoid

acoring to parts and ford its a silenoid even though its a relay. i understand that.

the size wire i have runing down is 12 gauge and identical to international setup.

and you made my point on these "relays". you bought yours 23 years ago. go to Napa and get a new one and find out how long it will last, 1 week? 2 weeks? or 2 months before it shorts out internally and locks the starter in while running. i tried out close to 30 of these last year from different stores in 2 months and gave up on them. i have talked to a lot of diesel shops and international dealers around the country while traveling and some have interesting ideas like using a marine solenoid/relay, which can be hard to get. or bypass as i have done. But they have all had the same problem, these new ones dont work nor last. if i get to a salvage yard and get a used one. so far only found 1, it lasted 6 months, truck it come off of had over 300k on it so was expected. but it simply stopped working and didn't self destruct.

and i dont use any of the ignition or original wiring in circuit for starter, its all on its own. again i am running the same setup used in internationals trucks. which use the same engine.


battery---------fuse--------------toggle-------------starter<<---------------battery

so far only had 1 starter fail with a internal short sending power back thru. which is just a coincidence.
Fried section
power-------fuse-------------toggle off<<--------------------starter<-----------battery

if it was setup this way,

batery-----relay-------inline fuse--------ignition--------clutch safety neutral-----------relay----------------------starter<<---------------battery

a lot off circuits would have been fried and a lot of damage to fix. but like i said, 1st starter i have ever seen go bad internally and still not certain why.
 
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