The Diesel Stop banner

aftermarket turbo?

7K views 57 replies 11 participants last post by  NMB2 
#1 ·
I may get a turbo kit in the future and was wondering what all is out there? I found the hypermax and banks kits and the hypermax is right at $2000 compared to $3000 for the banks. What is the perferred kit between banks and hypermax? Is there anymore companies that make a good kit for the idi's?
 
#2 ·
I just can't stand Banks because they are buddy-buddy with the EPA (and I can't stand Auburn either). I'd go with hypermax

Sent from my DROID RAZR using AutoGuide App
 
#3 ·
And I think ATS makes a kit

Sent from my DROID RAZR using AutoGuide App
 
#4 ·
ATS stopped making kits and sold their back parts stock, don't call them

luckily the turbo is a garrett T3/T4 hybrid so you don't need ATS, anyone can rebuild your turbo, etc.
 
#5 ·
ATS stopped making kits and sold their back parts stock, don't call them

luckily the turbo is a garrett T3/T4 hybrid so you don't need ATS, anyone can rebuild your turbo, etc.

Yea, I looked at the ATS website and they dont list the idi kits anymore. Do you know if there is a general preference between the banks and hypermax kits?
 
#6 ·
I think the Banks is wastegated and the Hypermax isn't.

Wastegated turbo's reach max boost at a lower RPM.
 
#9 ·
Last time I looked, the "pulse" system was non wastegated. I don't ever remember seeing any other.
 
#13 ·
If your Pump is okay, just turn it up 2 flats.
 
#21 ·
flow

Question, will the fuel lines from the tank to the pump flow enough volume to support the flow rate of that pump? I ask because the OEM fuel lines are way undersized and just wont work...



Javier
 
#24 ·
Question, will the fuel lines from the tank to the pump flow enough volume to support the flow rate of that pump? I ask because the OEM fuel lines are way undersized and just wont work...=
What do you base that statement on?

First, it is not necessary to maintain the maximum flow rate of the pump. The pump is cooled by fuel and hopefully the motor is sufficiently oversized to keep it going. What is necessary is to provide sufficient pressure and flow.

Second, turbo kits for IDIs don't come with fuel lines, but they still work fine.
 
#22 ·
What is attached to the turbo that looks like a throttle with a spring?
Where are you picking up the oil supply from?
What intercooler are you using?
Did you do anything to the engine (cam, etc..)and what HP/TQ do you have now?
 
#23 ·
What is attached to the turbo that looks like a throttle with a spring?
Where are you picking up the oil supply from?
what intercooler are you using?
Did you do anything to the engine (cam, etc..)and what HP/TQ do you have now?
''What is attached to the turbo that looks like a throttle with a spring?''

this is a VGT turbo....basically changes the size of the turbo




''Where are you picking up the oil supply from?''

the oil pressure sending unit

''what intercooler are you using?''

1999-2003 7.3l PSD cooler

''Did you do anything to the engine (cam, etc..)"

nope just new intake manifold from racin

''what HP/TQ do you have now?''

not sure, when i had the ats turbo i was at 202/440 at the wheels @ 13psi and 950egt...this set up feels like it has more in it...i know boost is just a restriction but @ 24psi this thing really moves
 
#27 · (Edited)
@ 91dirtydiesel

The FACET pump is for farm equiptment not a street vehicle that you want the most power from, it has no volume to deliver that the engine needs.

Facet® Dura-Lift<sup>®</sup> Fuel Pumps | Facet Purolator

30-50 GPH just works on farm equiptment and slow moving boats.

Actually this is the advertisment for application
Application: Refrigeration trucks, marine generator sets, diesel filtration systems, industrial applications, and other diesel lift applications. These pumps are rated for diesel fuel, gasoline, blended alcohol fuels, and fuel additives.

Javier
 
#30 ·
@ 91dirtydiesel

The FACET pump is for farm equiptment not a street vehicle that you want the most power from, it has no volume to deliver that the engine needs.

Facet® Dura-Lift<sup>®</sup> Fuel Pumps | Facet Purolator

30-50 GPH just works on farm equiptment and slow moving boats.

Actually this is the advertisment for application



Javier
So what's our factory lift pump put out...? I though they were pretty similar in GPH...which came highly recommended from others
 
#35 · (Edited)
I now run air separator, dedicated regulated return, bosch diesel inline pump, bigger lines, and twin filters. Makes no difference in power, just makes for a nicer fuel setup.

To say the stock line size, or that a holley blue can't feed YOUR truck is not true. You are not commanding nearly enough fuel to see pressure drops.

You can make a AN-4 line support 700 horsepower if you wanted. The difference between doing it with a AN-4 and an AN-10 is what is the pressure drop across the line. All of the lines will have a pressure drop, its just that an undersized line will have a higher pressure at the pump to maintain XX pressure at the pump than a larger line.
 
#38 ·
I now run air separator, dedicated regulated return, bosch diesel inline pump, bigger lines, and twin filters. Makes no difference in power, just makes for a nicer fuel setup.

To say the stock line size, or that a holley blue can't feed YOUR truck is not true. You are not commanding nearly enough fuel to see pressure drops.

You can make a AN-4 line support 700 horsepower if you wanted. The difference between doing it with a AN-4 and an AN-10 is what is the pressure drop across the line. All of the lines will have a pressure drop, its just that an undersized line will have a higher pressure at the pump to maintain XX pressure at the pump than a larger line.
Well the IDI engine at 3500 rpm will use XX amount of fuel, any idea how much it would use?


Javier
 
#39 ·
Unless your sticker is missing it says right on the engine how much fuel it can use under peak power conditions. e.g. File:Emissions.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia from Chuckster's valve cover, with ford factory turbo. Of course, that's without being turned up, but the point stands. I would very much like to get a fuel consumption gauge but there are a bunch of considerations, the biggest one that you need two sensors and a gauge system that can read the difference between them, because you have to subtract the return from the supply to get the actual consumption. The cheap ones have to be read visually so that's a no-go, and just the sensors (ones that will read accurately within the working temperature range) are a hundred bucks a piece.
 
#40 · (Edited)
Unless your sticker is missing it says right on the engine how much fuel it can use under peak power conditions. e.g. File:Emissions.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia from Chuckster's valve cover, with ford factory turbo. Of course, that's without being turned up, but the point stands. I would very much like to get a fuel consumption gauge but there are a bunch of considerations, the biggest one that you need two sensors and a gauge system that can read the difference between them, because you have to subtract the return from the supply to get the actual consumption. The cheap ones have to be read visually so that's a no-go, and just the sensors (ones that will read accurately within the working temperature range) are a hundred bucks a piece.
An injection shop can take a injection pump and lets say make 8 lines to fit into a 5 gallon bucket and turn the machine on for 60 seconds and record the amount of fuel flowed into the bucket at a set RPM.

Then the same type test could be done with injectors at the end of the lines, just to get a baseline on what is possible and or requierd.

I have always wondered this but never found any info on it.

I know that my 351 Windsor will use up 1 quart of gas in 7 seconds under drag strip loading, and a top fuel funny car will use 6 gallons in 4 seconds.

An IDI 7.3 Diesel is still a mystery to me, Guess I could hang out one day at Diesel Power and Injection of Miami and buy them guys lunch so we could playaround a bit in the shop.


Javier
 
#42 ·
Ok I am bad at math, add that all up for lets say 15 seconds worth of 1500 rpm and convert that to gallons.
That should cover the amount used in a 1/4 mile pass in general.


Thanks in advance



Javier
 
#51 ·
NMB2- the roller to roller dimension has everything to do with maximum fuel. The phasing is done by the shoe dimensions which hold the rollers in place. The leaf spring tension determines the maximum travel of these shoes (and so plunger travel) and is adjusted by the 'fuel screw' The more plunger travel the more fuel pumped. Again, that test plan is for a natural aspirated engine, the roller to roller spec for the turbo pump is higher.
The recheck spec at 1400 rpm is actually for a momentary bump in fuel or torque back up. Your engine does not run at 1400 rpm at WOT for more than a split second however it can run at higher rpm's under heavy load for some time.
Also, if you adjust the roller to roller fuel at 2800 rpm it will correspondingly adjust the fuel at the 1400 rpm point.
 
#52 · (Edited)
I mistyped in my first portion, I mixed up my first and second paragraph explaining the difference between run out and roller to roller spec.

How many pumps have you built to rival mine? Or anyone for that matter.... We both know the answer.

My point is, I fully understand the operation of the pump, and calibration. Myself and Racin' have done more with these pumps than any other person to date, to knowledge.

You literally just validated everything I said, I now have nothing to disagree with you except I'm not quite sure why you're trying to argue max fuel point with me. 1400rpm is the max fuel point, period.

This holds true for 6.9 pumps, 7.3 pumps, and my modified turbo-cal pumps. (unless you have a modified rotor like myself and racin' in our DB4's, then you can hold max fuel from 1400 to nearly gov).

As for the difference in stock R-to-R spec between 7.3 N/A and Turbo I know the exact difference. 7.3 N/A is 1.973, turbo is 1.975, a difference of 5-6cc's. 1.975 is also where I have my DB4 set to get 132cc's @ 1400. With a Roller to roller of 1.973 my pump did 120 @ 1400. Racin's pump is about 2".

None of this really makes a bit of difference though. The 92.5-94 pump whether in an N/A truck or Turbo truck are identical pumps. The 88-92 pumps are capable of the exact same max fuel rate.

So who really cares about a factory spec?
 
#53 ·
To answer how many pumps I have built- thousands. Literally. I have been rebuilding DB2s since they were introduced in 1977. I have been rebuilding 4 plunger Stanadyne pumps since 1976. No, I haven't built a racing DB4 for a 7.3 although I have for a number of 6.5 GMs.
But we got way off topic here. I'm sure the OP is not interested in high cost mods such as this anyways.
To others dropping in here- turbo pumps and N/A pumps are NOT the same. If you are considering replacing your IP, please contact a diesel shop and get the CORRECT replacement if you are keeping your truck stock.
 
#54 · (Edited)
To others dropping in here- turbo pumps and N/A pumps are NOT the same. If you are considering replacing your IP, please contact a diesel shop and get the CORRECT replacement if you are keeping your truck stock.
I didn't ask how many pumps you've built, anybody with a stand and a calibration sheet can rebuild a pump. Hell, there are plenty of guys doing it without. I asked how many pumps you have built on the level of my turbo-cal's and DB4's. There is a big difference between coming up with your own calibrations that work, and using the cheat sheet.

Evel, it looks like I jumped the gun initially on the 69cc rating of turbo-calibrations spec, I read/type scatter brained a lot. The valve cover itself does state 68-69cc, and I can admit that I don't know all of the factory calibrations by heart, because I generally don't do a stock pump unless its N/A.

My Turbo-cal pumps are superior in every way..... but this is the type of misinformation that causes people to go on the forums looking for "turbo pumps" thinking they are a special, higher output pump. I deal with 2 different Injection shops that both disagree with you, and I disagree with you.

There are two head and rotor groups. 6.9 and 7.3. One is a .29 plunger, the other a .31

All 6.9's are .29, all 7.3's are .31

There are a bunch of slight differences in cam ring numbers and such but nothing of real importance. The main importance is that you get the right Head/Rotor, and the right housing.

You have housings that had bronze bushings/less seals, and Roller bearing/more seals shaft. The last four digits of the Stanadyne part number for the bearing pump have to be 4746 or larger. 4369 and 4541 are built both ways so hard to tell unless torn apart.

The "turbo pump", which is the same pump used on 92.5-94 trucks regardless of turbo or N/A. Mechanically they are IDENTICAL. The only difference is a slightly different factory calibration.Nothing you would ever tell the difference on, on a stock truck, which is why there was only a 5-10hp increase in power.

It uses the aneroid screw (commonly referred to as torque screw), and they have a slightly different advance piston, allowing a broader light load/speed advance than the other 7.3 pumps.

In the end it doesn't matter. If you are having a pump done by anyone that can look outside of a calibration sheet, they can make any .31 pump perform the same. There is no difference in max fuel rate capabilities between N/A and "turbo" 7.3 pumps. Period.

When I do my Turbo-cal 80-90cc performance DB2, the only core requirements is that the core housing is a bearing housing, the shaft is not broken, and it has a .31 head/rotor. When I get a torque screw housing, I plug the torque screw hole.
 
#55 ·
You are exactly right. The parts in a turbo & N/A are the same but the calibration is different. That makes the pumps different off the shelf, which is the point I was trying to make. Very few 7.3 owners out there have the expertise you and I have to modify these pumps.
The numbers I was spouting are factory specs, yes. Not my specs. I build pumps according to the owners mods.
May I ask- which DB4 h&r are you using?
 
#56 · (Edited)
I knew that we had to of been having a miscommunication of words, and admittedly, as I said I am scatter brained a lot of times.

I knew someone that has as much rebuilding experience as you have (more than me) whether stock or not had to of known what I was trying to throw down.

I am using the head and rotor from a 5722 pump.

This pump is actually very easy to put together and make work..... but is VERY unreliable. It took a lot of R&D, and work on both Racin' and my behalf to perfect this pump.

I found out early on if you run it without any modifications there is a few issues..... number 1 max fuel is 120cc @ 1400 engine and by 2000rpm is only 96cc's, and right before it hits gov is only about 60cc's. This is with a 1.973" roller to roller. Racin' came up with modifications to fix this. We are now able to get these pumps to 180cc max fuel, and I think it tapers from 180cc @ 1400 to about 160 right before gov.

Issue two is that the DB2 advance assembly isn't strong enough to withstand the DB4 forces, namely the cam pin and will sheer it off. My first cam pin lasted 1000 miles, the second lasted 6000 miles. We had to custom machine and lap a new advance piston, modify the servo, and find a new cam pin, and modify it as well as the cam ring. This basically upgrades the system to a dynamic advance DB4 system.

I have put 10,000 miles on this new pin with much more fuel than before. I hit 132cc @ 1400 and its 128 right before gov.... racin' has put a little more I think (not sure).

EDIT:

I also apologize for coming off like you may not know what you were talking about. Understand that 90% of the people that try to start throwing specs out and building procedures have never calibrated one, let alone pulled one apart and it makes it difficult when some of these misinformation's get spread across the net. Specifically the rumor that a "turbo pump" is capable of more power than a standard N/A 7.3 pump.

Clearly you and I have an understanding at this point.
 
#57 ·
The misinformation out there is the main reason I ever got onto this site. I got curious as to why some people came into my shop for a repair and then proceeded to tell me I was doing it wrong because they "saw it on the internet"
I'm sorry we had a miscommunication- I'm a wrench puller. Sometimes I don't get my thoughts across well on this keyboard.
Your pump ideas sound interesting. Have you thought of dropping the light load advance altogether? Then you could run a much stronger DM style advance piston and cam pin.
 
#58 · (Edited)
My light load is functional, my speed advance is not. This was the side effect of the modifications. Still very streetable, almost not noticable.

Here you can see the difference in size between the stock DB2 pin and the pin we run.

This was pre-machining of the groove in the new pin... but you get the idea:



We EDM the stock advance piston and cam ring, and lap them together to accept this new, larger pin. We also modify the servo piston.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top