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7.3L IDI Diesels (Not Power Strokes) Technical discussion of topics related to vehicles powered by the 7.3 Liter In-Direct Injection Navistar engines.

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Old 11-30-2012, 11:50 PM   #46 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Evel486 View Post
DB2 pumps on Ford 7.3 max fuel settings- 1992 1/2 & up are set at 2800 rpm. 1988-92 are set at 3300 rpm. 1400 rpm is a recheck for torque backup.
This is from Stanadyne test plans.
You are either wording yourself wrong, or understanding wrong.

Max fueling occurs at 1400 engine rpm (700 pump) regardless of the calibration point, which on the 92.5-94 pump is 2800.

Last edited by NMB2; 12-01-2012 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:04 AM   #47 (permalink)
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That is only enough fuel to support about 170rwhp, so it isn't going to use much anyways.

The information I am searching is just basic.

If the engine needs a gallon of fuel in xx amount time then selecting a fuel pump is a bit easier, not that it is hard to begin with so many options.


The fuel pump on my Mustang will pump through my tank up to the carb 2 gallons in roughly 35/40 seconds so basically a gallon in 20 seconds.
That is a BG 220 HR street version pump.

I dont need for my dually but just as an example to see the delivery that engine/car needs to keep the engine alive, any less and holes in the pistons are inevitable.

Now the holley blue on my truck will pump to the filter about 1 gallon in 50 seconds of black fuel.
Now lately I have done some runs with it and under WOT the pressure gauge drops to 0 and stays there till I start to lift, then recovers pressure, the engine does not seem to starve but it sure does place a demand. need to do a little more testing to resolve that.


Javier
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1988 F250 dually All New 7.3 IDI, Banks Sidewinder.
C-6 with GearVendors overdrive 3.55 ring gear
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Evans NPG coolant.
AMSOIL ATF in the transmission, AMSOIL gear oil in the diff.
20MPG city 25/28 hwy

Last edited by IDIABUSE; 12-01-2012 at 12:06 AM.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:07 AM   #48 (permalink)
 
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The information I am searching is just basic.

If the engine needs a gallon of fuel in xx amount time the selecting a fuel pump is a bit easier, not that it is hard to begin with so many options.


The fuel pump on my Mustang will pump through my tank up to the carb 2 gallons in roughly 35/40 seconds so basically a gallon in 20 seconds.
That is a BG 220 HR street version pump.

I dont need for my dually but just as an example to see the delivery that engine/car needs to keep the engine alive, any less and holes in the pistons are inevitable.

Now the holley blue on my truck will pump to the filter about 1 gallon in 50 seconds of black fuel.
Now lately I have done some runs with it and under WOT the pressure gauge drops to 0 and stays there till I start to lift, then recovers pressure, the engine does not seem to starve but it sure does place a demand. need to do a little more testing to resolve that.


Javier
Your pump under WOT demands about 35gph @ 6psi.

Also, I noticed you said you are pumping 14psi into it, I would recommend toning your max psi down to 10 to avoid damaging the pump, and hurting your performance.

You either made your feed lines/return too large, or your holley blue is worn out.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:31 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Your pump under WOT demands about 35gph @ 6psi.

Also, I noticed you said you are pumping 14psi into it, I would recommend toning your max psi down to 10 to avoid damaging the pump, and hurting your performance.

You either made your feed lines/return too large, or your holley blue is worn out.
The regulator is a mallory 4309 with a vacuum/boost compensation port.
So boost adds pressure, with my truck there is two filters one before the pump and the oem filter. It could be time for a change or even maybe you
could be correct and the pump is tired, I can bench test it to see.
I did get it free as a hurricane damaged item new in the box, under inspection the roter and vanes where perfect but the pressure relief rusted and was jamed, so that was perfect for me, dont want the valve anyway for a return system with a bypass reg.

I have #10 feed from the two tanks into the filter and pump then the feed to regulator and secondary filter and return is all #8 to both tanks.

The bed is coming off to see if I can lighten the truck to 4990lbs for title amendment so I dont get bent over at the tax agency and while that is going on I have to inspect the tanks for proper venting so I eliminate any filtration/ sucking issues there.

So when driving making road speed the pressure is like 4psi and as I roll into it it can rise up to 14 psi but just for a moment, I use that system that way to pump the WMO that sometimes gets a lil thick.


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1988 F250 dually All New 7.3 IDI, Banks Sidewinder.
C-6 with GearVendors overdrive 3.55 ring gear
Synthetic SAE 10W-30/SAE 30 Heavy-Duty Motor Oil,
Evans NPG coolant.
AMSOIL ATF in the transmission, AMSOIL gear oil in the diff.
20MPG city 25/28 hwy
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:49 AM   #50 (permalink)
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NMB2- the roller to roller dimension has everything to do with maximum fuel. The phasing is done by the shoe dimensions which hold the rollers in place. The leaf spring tension determines the maximum travel of these shoes (and so plunger travel) and is adjusted by the 'fuel screw' The more plunger travel the more fuel pumped. Again, that test plan is for a natural aspirated engine, the roller to roller spec for the turbo pump is higher.
The recheck spec at 1400 rpm is actually for a momentary bump in fuel or torque back up. Your engine does not run at 1400 rpm at WOT for more than a split second however it can run at higher rpm's under heavy load for some time.
Also, if you adjust the roller to roller fuel at 2800 rpm it will correspondingly adjust the fuel at the 1400 rpm point.
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:11 AM   #51 (permalink)
 
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NMB2- the roller to roller dimension has everything to do with maximum fuel. The phasing is done by the shoe dimensions which hold the rollers in place. The leaf spring tension determines the maximum travel of these shoes (and so plunger travel) and is adjusted by the 'fuel screw' The more plunger travel the more fuel pumped. Again, that test plan is for a natural aspirated engine, the roller to roller spec for the turbo pump is higher.
The recheck spec at 1400 rpm is actually for a momentary bump in fuel or torque back up. Your engine does not run at 1400 rpm at WOT for more than a split second however it can run at higher rpm's under heavy load for some time.
Also, if you adjust the roller to roller fuel at 2800 rpm it will correspondingly adjust the fuel at the 1400 rpm point.
I mistyped in my first portion, I mixed up my first and second paragraph explaining the difference between run out and roller to roller spec.

How many pumps have you built to rival mine? Or anyone for that matter.... We both know the answer.

My point is, I fully understand the operation of the pump, and calibration. Myself and Racin' have done more with these pumps than any other person to date, to knowledge.

You literally just validated everything I said, I now have nothing to disagree with you except I'm not quite sure why you're trying to argue max fuel point with me. 1400rpm is the max fuel point, period.

This holds true for 6.9 pumps, 7.3 pumps, and my modified turbo-cal pumps. (unless you have a modified rotor like myself and racin' in our DB4's, then you can hold max fuel from 1400 to nearly gov).

As for the difference in stock R-to-R spec between 7.3 N/A and Turbo I know the exact difference. 7.3 N/A is 1.973, turbo is 1.975, a difference of 5-6cc's. 1.975 is also where I have my DB4 set to get 132cc's @ 1400. With a Roller to roller of 1.973 my pump did 120 @ 1400. Racin's pump is about 2".

None of this really makes a bit of difference though. The 92.5-94 pump whether in an N/A truck or Turbo truck are identical pumps. The 88-92 pumps are capable of the exact same max fuel rate.

So who really cares about a factory spec?

Last edited by NMB2; 12-01-2012 at 02:26 AM.
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Old 12-01-2012, 11:43 AM   #52 (permalink)
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To answer how many pumps I have built- thousands. Literally. I have been rebuilding DB2s since they were introduced in 1977. I have been rebuilding 4 plunger Stanadyne pumps since 1976. No, I haven't built a racing DB4 for a 7.3 although I have for a number of 6.5 GMs.
But we got way off topic here. I'm sure the OP is not interested in high cost mods such as this anyways.
To others dropping in here- turbo pumps and N/A pumps are NOT the same. If you are considering replacing your IP, please contact a diesel shop and get the CORRECT replacement if you are keeping your truck stock.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:21 PM   #53 (permalink)
 
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To others dropping in here- turbo pumps and N/A pumps are NOT the same. If you are considering replacing your IP, please contact a diesel shop and get the CORRECT replacement if you are keeping your truck stock.
I didn't ask how many pumps you've built, anybody with a stand and a calibration sheet can rebuild a pump. Hell, there are plenty of guys doing it without. I asked how many pumps you have built on the level of my turbo-cal's and DB4's. There is a big difference between coming up with your own calibrations that work, and using the cheat sheet.

Evel, it looks like I jumped the gun initially on the 69cc rating of turbo-calibrations spec, I read/type scatter brained a lot. The valve cover itself does state 68-69cc, and I can admit that I don't know all of the factory calibrations by heart, because I generally don't do a stock pump unless its N/A.

My Turbo-cal pumps are superior in every way..... but this is the type of misinformation that causes people to go on the forums looking for "turbo pumps" thinking they are a special, higher output pump. I deal with 2 different Injection shops that both disagree with you, and I disagree with you.

There are two head and rotor groups. 6.9 and 7.3. One is a .29 plunger, the other a .31

All 6.9's are .29, all 7.3's are .31

There are a bunch of slight differences in cam ring numbers and such but nothing of real importance. The main importance is that you get the right Head/Rotor, and the right housing.

You have housings that had bronze bushings/less seals, and Roller bearing/more seals shaft. The last four digits of the Stanadyne part number for the bearing pump have to be 4746 or larger. 4369 and 4541 are built both ways so hard to tell unless torn apart.

The "turbo pump", which is the same pump used on 92.5-94 trucks regardless of turbo or N/A. Mechanically they are IDENTICAL. The only difference is a slightly different factory calibration.Nothing you would ever tell the difference on, on a stock truck, which is why there was only a 5-10hp increase in power.

It uses the aneroid screw (commonly referred to as torque screw), and they have a slightly different advance piston, allowing a broader light load/speed advance than the other 7.3 pumps.

In the end it doesn't matter. If you are having a pump done by anyone that can look outside of a calibration sheet, they can make any .31 pump perform the same. There is no difference in max fuel rate capabilities between N/A and "turbo" 7.3 pumps. Period.

When I do my Turbo-cal 80-90cc performance DB2, the only core requirements is that the core housing is a bearing housing, the shaft is not broken, and it has a .31 head/rotor. When I get a torque screw housing, I plug the torque screw hole.

Last edited by NMB2; 12-01-2012 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:09 PM   #54 (permalink)
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You are exactly right. The parts in a turbo & N/A are the same but the calibration is different. That makes the pumps different off the shelf, which is the point I was trying to make. Very few 7.3 owners out there have the expertise you and I have to modify these pumps.
The numbers I was spouting are factory specs, yes. Not my specs. I build pumps according to the owners mods.
May I ask- which DB4 h&r are you using?
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:24 PM   #55 (permalink)
 
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You are exactly right. The parts in a turbo & N/A are the same but the calibration is different. That makes the pumps different off the shelf, which is the point I was trying to make. Very few 7.3 owners out there have the expertise you and I have to modify these pumps.
The numbers I was spouting are factory specs, yes. Not my specs. I build pumps according to the owners mods.
May I ask- which DB4 h&r are you using?
I knew that we had to of been having a miscommunication of words, and admittedly, as I said I am scatter brained a lot of times.

I knew someone that has as much rebuilding experience as you have (more than me) whether stock or not had to of known what I was trying to throw down.

I am using the head and rotor from a 5722 pump.

This pump is actually very easy to put together and make work..... but is VERY unreliable. It took a lot of R&D, and work on both Racin' and my behalf to perfect this pump.

I found out early on if you run it without any modifications there is a few issues..... number 1 max fuel is 120cc @ 1400 engine and by 2000rpm is only 96cc's, and right before it hits gov is only about 60cc's. This is with a 1.973" roller to roller. Racin' came up with modifications to fix this. We are now able to get these pumps to 180cc max fuel, and I think it tapers from 180cc @ 1400 to about 160 right before gov.

Issue two is that the DB2 advance assembly isn't strong enough to withstand the DB4 forces, namely the cam pin and will sheer it off. My first cam pin lasted 1000 miles, the second lasted 6000 miles. We had to custom machine and lap a new advance piston, modify the servo, and find a new cam pin, and modify it as well as the cam ring. This basically upgrades the system to a dynamic advance DB4 system.

I have put 10,000 miles on this new pin with much more fuel than before. I hit 132cc @ 1400 and its 128 right before gov.... racin' has put a little more I think (not sure).

EDIT:

I also apologize for coming off like you may not know what you were talking about. Understand that 90% of the people that try to start throwing specs out and building procedures have never calibrated one, let alone pulled one apart and it makes it difficult when some of these misinformation's get spread across the net. Specifically the rumor that a "turbo pump" is capable of more power than a standard N/A 7.3 pump.

Clearly you and I have an understanding at this point.

Last edited by NMB2; 12-01-2012 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:50 PM   #56 (permalink)
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The misinformation out there is the main reason I ever got onto this site. I got curious as to why some people came into my shop for a repair and then proceeded to tell me I was doing it wrong because they "saw it on the internet"
I'm sorry we had a miscommunication- I'm a wrench puller. Sometimes I don't get my thoughts across well on this keyboard.
Your pump ideas sound interesting. Have you thought of dropping the light load advance altogether? Then you could run a much stronger DM style advance piston and cam pin.
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Old 12-01-2012, 11:21 PM   #57 (permalink)
 
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The misinformation out there is the main reason I ever got onto this site. I got curious as to why some people came into my shop for a repair and then proceeded to tell me I was doing it wrong because they "saw it on the internet"
I'm sorry we had a miscommunication- I'm a wrench puller. Sometimes I don't get my thoughts across well on this keyboard.
Your pump ideas sound interesting. Have you thought of dropping the light load advance altogether? Then you could run a much stronger DM style advance piston and cam pin.
My light load is functional, my speed advance is not. This was the side effect of the modifications. Still very streetable, almost not noticable.

Here you can see the difference in size between the stock DB2 pin and the pin we run.

This was pre-machining of the groove in the new pin... but you get the idea:



We EDM the stock advance piston and cam ring, and lap them together to accept this new, larger pin. We also modify the servo piston.

Last edited by NMB2; 12-01-2012 at 11:24 PM.
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