Finally got that damn Ats turbo off!! - (used a BFH)

[ziggster40]

Some of you may remember me getting very frustrated some time ago trying to get the factory ATS turbo off my latest aquisition...click here for the original thread..

The "y" pipe was all rusted to the uppipe, and wouldn't come loose. I pried, I cried, I bled all over it and still no way it would come loose or out.

Cam mentioned he used a slaphammer of sorts. So I decided to make up my own, and designed it so that it fit right on where the crossover pipe bolted to the "y". I put a chain around the turbo and used my engine hoist to pull up on the thing till I was nearly lifting the engine out, and then put the slaphammer on below with 20lb weights on a 2ft traveler, and proceeded to beat on it. Took about 30 serious blows, and I decided that either it was coming apart, or something was gonna break, and it finally popped. The rest was easy.

Curiously enough, the crossover pipe was full of thick sludgy oil, and when I got the intake off, there is a big puddle of oil in the intake too!! Maybe the turbo seals are gone, and it's that oil that seized the engine...Hmmm, that wouldn't explain why there's antifreeze in the oilpan though...Something going on here. Cracked head/split piston?

Curious.

Anyway, thanks Cam, and all the others for your support and advice.

Zigg [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[OkieGringo]

Zigg, was a CDR hooked to the ATS housing? Maybe the CDR was allowing too much blowby back into the intake. Just a thought [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]. OG

[jrfastbanshee]

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Curiously enough, the crossover pipe was full of thick sludgy oil, and when I got the intake off, there is a big puddle of oil in the intake too!! Maybe the turbo seals are gone, and it's that oil that seized the engine...Hmmm, that wouldn't explain why there's antifreeze in the oilpan though...Something going on here. Cracked head/split piston?

Curious.

Anyway, thanks Cam, and all the others for your support and advice.

Zigg [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Zigg,
My crew cab had the same sludge all over the place. My engine had a blown head gasket and 2 gallons of coolant in the oil. This formed the black sludge which overflowed thru the CDR which went right into the turbo/intake and some out the exhaust. Your turbo should be fine...just check the endplay.

-fiver

[ziggster40]

That's what I was kinda hoping. I know there's coolant in the oil, and there is no endplay or side/side play in the turbo wheel at all, although it does spin, it's quite stiff, and I assume it's the thick sludgy oil in there which I'm going to rinse out today and see what it's like after that.

This turbo has the CDR on the Drivers' valve cover, but the hose from the CDR didn't have any of the oily sludge in it.

Maybe It's only a headgasket. That'd be cool. I might be able to get away with a headgasket r&r and then it'd be on the road!

Right now, though it's locked up. Next chance I get, I'm goint to figure out which cylinder is locked, pull the injectors and glowplugs, and see if I can't get the fluid out, and maybe get it to turn over. If I can do that, then it might be worth getting into....

Time will tell....

Zigg [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[towcat]

zig-
if I am getting the right visual here....it is positively scarry. You have the engine suspended on a chain, a slide hammer is attached to the uppipe, the only place you could be is under the truck.... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img] I'm glad the chain holding onto the motor didn't let go from all the pounding from the slidehammer. All I can say is don't try that again....
anyhow...good to see that you did get it apart tho.
As afar as the turbo is concerned, I did the same to my motor when the oil cooler seals let go and the intake started chugging. I kept driving on it. Texas to kalifornia that is. Somewhere out in the Airzona desert I realzed just how foolish that could have been. My turbo did take a hit from my folly, and I went ahead and sent it out for rebuilding. Cost? $450 usd. Was interested in giving a "friend" some work and wound up paying more than I should.
oh well.....

[ziggster40]

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if I am getting the right visual here....it is positively scarry.

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Ahhh, I can see the look on your face, if you're visualizing that image!!

But, no, I didn't have the "engine" on the hoist while I was layin' under there(I'm stupid some days, but I'm not nuts!!)

I only had the turbo itself snared on a chain, and I pulled up on the cherry picker so hard I bent the firewall and the rear injector and line while I lay underneath with the slidehammer attached to the "y" piece of the uppipe from below, and slaphammered down on the "y" to get it apart from the rest of the uppipe.

Yours is quite a story. One more testimonial to how tough these units can be.

Looks like I've got 2 separate problems.

There's definately coolant in the oil(I drained about 2 gals before any oil came out)

And, today I decided to put a bit of varsol through the turbo oil inlet to flush the sludge out of it and then the plan was to follow with some fresh oil, but when I put the varsol in there, it ran out the fresh air side of the turbo. I put 10psi air to it, and with my finger over the oil drain, it just comes straight out the intake opening. Oil does the same, so, seems like the turbo seals are gone. No play in it otherwise though. That'd explain the oil in the intake, but none in the CDR tube.

So, the turbo needs a rebuild, and the engine may just need headgaskets, but/or it could still be cavitated.

It's only got 110,000 original miles though, so maybe just gaskets. I won't pull the engine till spring till it warms up a bit(it's been below freezing here for over a week now) so won't know till then.

Zigg [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Huff]

Zig , there are no seals in there, the only thing keeping the oil from getting into the compressor and or the turbine is gravity allowing the oil to fall out the drain. Rinse it a few times with a good penatrating oil and check for shaft rotational drag, end play and axial play. Should be less than .002" end play and axial play may seem excessive but as long as there is some clearence between the compressor wheel and the housing, the turbo is servicable.
the turbine shaft is supported on a pressurised oil film. Without oil pressure the shaft will seem sloppy.

[icanfixall]

Huff is very correct on the no seals in the turbo. I know, its hard to believe something that spins over 100,000 rpm would not have a seal. The design of the sleeve-bushing bearings keeps the oil in its correct place. The steam turbines I work on don't have any convential seals but they don't leak oil or steam because of the "seals" that they have. Its just oil pressure and steam pressure that keeps them sealed. Even the hydrogen cooled generator doesn't have a lip seal. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img]

[ziggster40]

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The design of the sleeve-bushing bearings keeps the oil in its correct place.

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there are no seals in there, the only thing keeping the oil from getting into the compressor and or the turbine is gravity allowing the oil to fall out the drain.

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Ok, this is a new one on me. I gotta admit I fail to understand how the bearings can prevent the oil under pressure(as high as 60psi) not to leak out past the compressor wheels, but if you guys say that's so, I certainly have no grounds to dispute it. Just seems weird to me.

There is the faintest hint of end play, barely anything, and side/side play is negligeable. The reaon I put varsol through it was because it seemed to me to have quite a bit of resistance to rotation like it was gummed up with something(I assumed the oily sludgy stuff) After the varsol and fresh oil dribbled down in there, it is better, but still doesn't just "float" along. I might try to push some air through the exhaust "in" side, and see if it spins with a bit of pressure on that side...

I gotta admit, I'm still thinkin' about a shiny new Hypermax unit to go on my shiny new engine, but I might wait till it's in and running before making any quick decisions...

I'll try to spin the thing with some oil in there, and see how it goes...

Zigg [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[OkieGringo]

I have always heard that you shouldn't shut down a turboed engine until the pyro is under 300 degrees because it causes the oil in the turbo bearings to 'coke up'. Could this be the reason that your impellers are not spinning freely? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]OkieGringo

[Huff]

There are large cutouts that take advantage of centrifical forces and sling the oil into the cutout/grove which then guides the oil like a slew to the drain.

[icanfixall]

The steam turbines I work on have pressures as high as 3500 lbs with nothing actually touching the spinning shafts but steam and nothing leaks by. The other end of the turbine has 28 inches of vacuum and steam seals the end of the shaft too. Its kinda like magic. Our high pressure feed pumps have a spiral cut that turns back into the pump casing so it draws the leakage back into the pump. These pumps run about 4500 lbs of water at about 750 degrees. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smokin.gif[/img]

[ziggster40]

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large cutouts that take advantage of centrifical forces and sling the oil

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Well, when you put it that way, I guess when it's spinning it does make more sense. I'm gonna just take your word for it, and consider it yet one more humble learning experience from the "big guys"...

Thanks.

[icanfixall]

Thanks Zig.... I'm really not a "big guy"..... Here I'm just a guy that likes driving an idi and working on it too.... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif[/img]