Help, I live in the mountains - Diesel Forum

surfacedr · 11-07-2009, 01:51 AM

HElp, I live in the mountains (8K ft)
Hi, I just bought a 1990 7.3 e-350 7.3 ambulance. It has my equipment and a large machine in it. It only has 76K mi on it and runs great except for when I hit even the smallest hill at anything over 60 mph. Can I add a turbo to this and how much is it? Is there something like a high altitude injector system?? Please give some suggestions as to what I can do to make my new baby not a dog.
Thanks a bunch.. I am new to the whole Diesel thing.

LMJD · 11-07-2009, 06:03 AM

Yes you lose a lot of power at high elevations without a turbocharger on any diesel. At 4000+ feet elevation when pulling hard a lot of what would be horsepower is going out the tailpipe in the form of black smoke. I tow a lot so I turboed mine at 30,000 in about '92 and it made all the difference in the world. No smoke at even at 9,000+feet, same pulling power as at sea level. No matter what elevation the turbo system greatly increases pulling power and torque. If it's set up right I agree with the ATS Turbo company former owner, you won't shorten engine life or reliability. My complete kit including 3" exhaust cost $2400-$2500 back then. I've got 241,000 now, never done any internal engine work and use 1 qt of oil between 5000 mile changes like when I bought the truck new in 1991.

NH2112 · 11-07-2009, 08:01 AM

If you're looking to spend a little less money, look at nitrous. Air is roughly 20% oxygen, nitrous is about 36%. Injecting nitrous will give you nearly twice the oxygen to burn per volume. Just turn it on when you're pulling a hill or when you need to accelerate hard, and leave it off on the flats.

Steve250 · 11-07-2009, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NH2112

If you're looking to spend a little less money, look at nitrous. Air is roughly 20% oxygen, nitrous is about 36%. Injecting nitrous will give you nearly twice the oxygen to burn per volume. Just turn it on when you're pulling a hill or when you need to accelerate hard, and leave it off on the flats.

Please post a link to this system you speak of.

chuckster57 · 11-07-2009, 08:53 AM

You can also do propane:

"Propane article"

NH2112 · 11-07-2009, 09:35 AM

The problem with propane is that it has FAR fewer BTU/unit than diesel fuel (approx. 60% as much), and it uses oxygen that would otherwise combine with diesel and produce more heat (energy.) In a turbocharged engine oxygen availability isn't an issue, and what propane does there is cause almost all the injected diesel fuel to burn. Typically only about 80-85% of the diesel fuel injected burns, propane injection pushes that to 95% or better.

chuckster57 · 11-07-2009, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NH2112

The problem with propane is that it has FAR fewer BTU/unit than diesel fuel (approx. 60% as much), and it uses oxygen that would otherwise combine with diesel and produce more heat (energy.) In a turbocharged engine oxygen availability isn't an issue, and what propane does there is cause almost all the injected diesel fuel to burn. Typically only about 80-85% of the diesel fuel injected burns, propane injection pushes that to 95% or better.

Makes sense that propane would use MORE oxygen than just diesel fuel..I replied before I finished my morning shot of mud....

NH2112 · 11-07-2009, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve250

Please post a link to this system you speak of.

Well, here's a universal V8 system from NOS, but this is something almost anyone can build on their own for far less money.

Holley Performance Products Sniper Universal Wet Kit*07006NOS

Basically, you need a bottle, hose, nozzle, toggle switch, vacuum or oil pressure switch (so system can only be activated when the engine's running), and 2 lockoffs (1 opened & closed by the vac or O.P. switch, the other opened by the toggle switch.) Get the bottle from Amerigas, Merriam-Graves, or any welding/industrial gas supplier. Hoses and necessary fittings come from any hydraulic shop. You can get a nozzle from a speed shop, the vacuum/oil pressure switch and the lockoffs are available from any forklift dealer, and if there's a Skyjack aerial lift dealer nearby (United Rentals, for example), you can order the following part numbers: (part numbers may have changed, my CD manual is over 4 years old.)

2ea 125793, LPG shutoff (lockoff)
1ea 111623, switch, vacuum safety

These are both threaded for 1/8" NPT.

There's also an adjustable nozzle that I couldn't find the Skyjack part number for (it's been a long time since I worked on one and forgot what it looks like LOL), but this

Valve, Flow Control - Pneumatic Flow Control And Needle Valves - Valves - Pneumatics & Hydraulics : Grainger Industrial Supply

or this

Valve, Needle, 1/8 NPT - Pneumatic Flow Control And Needle Valves - Valves - Pneumatics & Hydraulics : Grainger Industrial Supply

should work just fine. Start with it backed off maybe 1 turn from fully closed, and adjust for desired power. Mount away from the engine, the brass one is rated for 140F max and the plastic is 200F.

Steve250 · 11-07-2009, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NH2112

Well, here's a universal V8 system from NOS, but this is something almost anyone can build on their own for far less money.

Holley Performance Products Sniper Universal Wet Kit*07006NOS

Basically, you need a bottle, hose, nozzle, toggle switch, vacuum or oil pressure switch (so system can only be activated when the engine's running), and 2 lockoffs (1 opened & closed by the vac or O.P. switch, the other opened by the toggle switch.) Get the bottle from Amerigas, Merriam-Graves, or any welding/industrial gas supplier. Hoses and necessary fittings come from any hydraulic shop. You can get a nozzle from a speed shop, the vacuum/oil pressure switch and the lockoffs are available from any forklift dealer, and if there's a Skyjack aerial lift dealer nearby (United Rentals, for example), you can order the following part numbers: (part numbers may have changed, my CD manual is over 4 years old.)

2ea 125793, LPG shutoff (lockoff)
1ea 111623, switch, vacuum safety

These are both threaded for 1/8" NPT.

There's also an adjustable nozzle that I couldn't find the Skyjack part number for (it's been a long time since I worked on one and forgot what it looks like LOL), but this

Valve, Flow Control - Pneumatic Flow Control And Needle Valves - Valves - Pneumatics & Hydraulics : Grainger Industrial Supply

or this

Valve, Needle, 1/8 NPT - Pneumatic Flow Control And Needle Valves - Valves - Pneumatics & Hydraulics : Grainger Industrial Supply

should work just fine. Start with it backed off maybe 1 turn from fully closed, and adjust for desired power. Mount away from the engine, the brass one is rated for 140F max and the plastic is 200F.

So how long does a bottle of nitrogen cost? How long does it last? Do you just give it spurts of power when you really need it or can it go for 5 min straight?

If I understand this all correctly you just have a bottle filled with nitrogen > hose > pressure regulator > on off switch > and the hose just goes into the air intake?

RatherBNtheWoods · 11-07-2009, 11:54 AM

Let me start out with "Help", and "I live in the mountains" just does NOT go together!
What I wouldn't give.
And yes a turbo will help your truck a bunch.

surfacedr · 11-08-2009, 01:19 AM

Thanks for the input guys,
I think I want to stick with the turbo. I was looking at the ATS annd Hypermax. I am completely new to this whole diesel thing, but absolutely love it. Which of those turbos do you guys like and what extras do I need to get? I have priced Hypermax at $3100 for everything they recommend (3.5" Exhaust, Hood Mounted Cold AirInduction Kit, Smoke Puff Limiter, Pyrometer Gauges). Is all of this necessary or can it be added on ? How much should I pay to have this installed? I have a VERY tight E-350 van/ ambulance. How/ who should I take this to to do the work??? I live in Colorado in Vail. I could go to denver if I had to or Grand junction would be a lot easier since it is down hill
Thanks for the help and opinions

M.L.S.C. · 11-08-2009, 04:46 AM

The aneroid (smoke puff limiter) is not needed, all it does is limit fuel delivery till turbo spools up - ya know how big trucks blow dark smoke for a few seconds immediately after an upshift, that's the kinda smoke-puff you'll be limiting, certainly a nice feature to have but not really needed for your purposes (it's basically a want vs. need thing, and you don't "need" the aneroid). Big exhaust is nice to have and certainly has a benefit in the power gained department, so I suggest that you keep that. Pyro and boost gauges are a must, so those are keepers. The cold-air intake will also help you out good, but at $425 for the kit personally I would come up with something on my own...

As to how much to pay and who to hire for the job - it's all fairly easy work altho since you obviously don't feel comfortable doing it yourself I'd suggest that you hire a mechanic whom you have worked with before and whom you can trust - being a mechanic myself I always try to be honest with my customers and sometimes that means admitting I do not feel comfortable with a certain job and recommending them a different shop/mechanic for it, so if you have a guy who tries to maintain similar professional values then he is the person to talk to.

LMJD · 11-08-2009, 07:54 AM

Right, NOS and propane are just a bandaid (if even that good) compared to a turbo kit when it comes to diesel engines. I agree with M.L.S.C., his post is right on the money. Plus I can't see where Hypermax's cold air is needed either, I have the stock ducting and with a Filter Minder air cleaner restriction gauge I never show any restriction with the stock ducting and a K&N filter. The former owner of ATS also told me with all their R&D, engines running on test stands, dynos,etc, you get no benefit from an exhaust bigger than 3".
The company that bought ATS is in Colorado, maybe they're close to Vail. I'm partial to the ATS system, one reason is because Ford chose to use it in '93 so if all else fails you can get parts from a Ford dealer. It's efficiently engineered, and easier to install than Banks, and it's wastegated (important if you tow, live in mountain country, heavy vehicle) and Hypermax is not.

Quote:

How much should I pay to have this installed?

It's about 8 hours labor for the ATS kit if that tells you anything. I'm retired now but at the time was a full time heavy truck and diesel mechanic so I had all the necessary tools, etc, and going slow (translation--doing it right, NeverSiezing all turbo, exhaust bolts, etc.) mine took about 10-11 hours. But like any of those installation type jobs, if you had another truck to do sitting right next to the first one, you could do the second one in about 1/2 the time.

surfacedr · 11-09-2009, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.L.S.C.

The aneroid (smoke puff limiter) is not needed, all it does is limit fuel delivery till turbo spools up - ya know how big trucks blow dark smoke for a few seconds immediately after an upshift, that's the kinda smoke-puff you'll be limiting, certainly a nice feature to have but not really needed for your purposes (it's basically a want vs. need thing, and you don't "need" the aneroid). Big exhaust is nice to have and certainly has a benefit in the power gained department, so I suggest that you keep that. Pyro and boost gauges are a must, so those are keepers. The cold-air intake will also help you out good, but at $425 for the kit personally I would come up with something on my own...

As to how much to pay and who to hire for the job - it's all fairly easy work altho since you obviously don't feel comfortable doing it yourself I'd suggest that you hire a mechanic whom you have worked with before and whom you can trust - being a mechanic myself I always try to be honest with my customers and sometimes that means admitting I do not feel comfortable with a certain job and recommending them a different shop/mechanic for it, so if you have a guy who tries to maintain similar professional values then he is the person to talk to.

First, I cannot thank you guys enough.
What did you mean by coming up with something on my own for the clod air intake?
I am hoping that my D mechanic will take this on. He is a fully certified ford Master mechanic and I trust him for sure. I just do not know how comfortable he is with putting on an after market turbo set up...Not because he can't do it, I think it was more the fact that he has had some bad luck with after market kits that people bring in and then he looks bad in the end, so I am sending him the info on the kits (ATS, Hypermax, and Banks). It sounds like you guys like the ATS the most, is that right?? and is it because of the wastegate at high altitudes??? Most probably he will be seeing these post and then I will send him the info on the actual turbos.
Thanks a gain

LMJD · 11-09-2009, 04:36 PM

Quote:

...Not because he can't do it, I think it was more the fact that he has had some bad luck with after market kits that people bring in and then he looks bad in the end,

I agree, most any real full time mechanic has a real bad attitude when it comes to most "mods", myself included. It's generally ill-designed crap or a hair-brained idea that doesn't install like advertised, takes twice as long as estimated, never does as promised and there's usually a downside in the end so like you say, the shop takes the blame. With that in mind, I researched Banks and ATS to death before I decided to buy and install one. Our local turbo/injection pump shop was an authorized ATS installer and 7.3 authority so I talked a lot to him and many others who were actually in the diesel pickup engine trade. Most diesels of all sizes are turbocharged anyway, not for "hot rod" reasons but for max power output under load. I ended up being convinced to spring for an ATS kit and when I laid it all out on my garage floor my first thought was, Holy Crap, this thing is REALLY well engineered. So much so that I had heard at that time that Ford chose to use it in 93 or 94 which they did. What's nice about a turboed 7.3, pulling my horse tlr it doesn't take me 1/2 mile to pass somebody on a two lane road if I want to, and the increased pulling power going up grades at any altitude is great.

Quote:

and is it because of the wastegate at high altitudes???

I'm sold on wastegated types regardess of the altitude. With a wastegate, the turbo can be designed to provide maximum boost at a much lower RPM, then the wastegate opens as needed to prevent over boost. Therefore you get max pulling power over a wider RPM range rather than just near max RPM with the nonwastegated style. They even went to wastegated turbos on heavy diesel trucks and you can really feel the much wider power range difference compared to the older non wastegated Cummins 335's, etc.