I need help w/ these stupid Fel-Pro valve seals

[farmfuel]

Hi to all,

Well, in trying to get this factory tubro motor built for my 94 CC, I have once again ran into another snag. It all began when I became suspicious of a poor quality valve job performed by the man who overhauled my heads. There was noticeable valve lapping compound around the perimeter of the seats. So I disassembled the heads, and also noticed that the intake valve stems weren't fully seated on the guide, and the exhaust oil shields appeared to be melted where they snap onto the spring retainer.

So in ordering a set of fel pro valve seals from Oreilly's, I got a p/n SS72628-1. Supposed to fit 6.9's and 7.3's. I tried to install the ex oil shield on the spring retainer, and it snapped on, no problem. Then I tried to get the oil shield over the ex valve stem, and it wouldn't fit. I pulled out another oil shield, pulled the valve out of the head, and tried to push it down. It barely went on there, under extreme pressure from me forcing it. I told myself this isn't right, and stopped. I called Fel Pro the next day. I told them I measured .370 valve stem OD, and measured .365 oil shield ID. He told me the manufacturing specifications call for .369 ID on the oil shield, and told me to order another set; there could've been a flaw in the ones that I had. So I got another set. Same story. Then I called again. I got put on hold for about 10 minutes, only to be told that they were having "manufacturing issues with the outside vendor making those seals" and that Fel-Pro has returned to manufacturing the seals in-house. He told me to have Orielly's call the Federal Mogul customer service line, and order the seals from their Snoknie IL plant. After he told me that, I felt better...until they came in today and I put them on; or at least tried to- it's all the same BS again. I'm getting pissed. I don't know what to do. Just use the scrawney oil shield for the 6.9? I tried those, and they do fit. the 6.9 seals are the same p/n, just drop the -1 at the end.

Sorry for the long winded post. Fel-Pro has let me down. Does Victor-Reinz make these? Maybe the dealer? Quit crying and just use the 6.9 oil shields?

[LMJD]

Did you pay for a complete set of new valves? If so, they may have oversized stems. On some engines they are (or were) available. If the guides were sloppy many times when I did a valve job I'd use valve guide reamers and install oversized valves rather than installing new guides.

There was noticeable valve lapping compound around the perimeter of the seats.

That's odd, lapping compound went out with the Model A days. It's never used in conjunction with a valve grind machine. The only foreign material that should show is Prussian Blue (layout dye) to check contact width and position on each valve and seat.

[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by LMJD

That's odd, lapping compound went out with the Model A days. It's never used in conjunction with a valve grind machine.

I have tubes of "metal grinding" paste in my garage, that I bought a few months ago. I send my valve jobs to the machine shop as a rule, but I have used the paste to clean up the mating surfaces. Just did a set of heads in the last month, 302 with over 160,000 miles. I could see daylight through some of the ports before.

A "proper" valve job is more involved, but when the customer doesn't have the $$ for it, the "bench top" method works.

[LMJD]

Good point.

[troubleddiesel]

i GOT MINE FROM VICTOR REINZ, AND THEY FIT WELL... TRY THEM... BUMMER ABOUT FEDERAL MOGUL... NOT VERY GOOD QUALITY CONTROL I GUESS... I WOULD BE FRUSTRATED AS WELL... GOOD LUCK.

[farmfuel]

Troubleddiesel, do you happen to have the p/n's for the Victor Reinz valve seals? That would be mighty helpful.

LMJD, The machine shop man did install new ex valves, it's a Stellight valve made (or sold by) EngineTech. It's p/n 01542S- applicable to Engine codes M, C and K. The ex stem measure the same OD as the intake (.370).

I did some reading, and I've heard folks say that the 7.3 valve seals seal so good, that the stem/guide suffer from a lack of lubrication. The 6.9 supposedly didn't have this problem, but that Navistar re engineered the set up on the 7.3 to battle emmission issues. I'm starting to convince myself to just go ahead and run the 6.9 seals. It may use a little more oil, but at least the guide would stay lubricated. Im not really sure.

If you saw the EX oil shield for the 6.9, you'd ask yourself what's the point of even installing it?

Thanks for the help, David

[LMJD]

If you saw the EX oil shield for the 6.9, you'd ask yourself what's the point of even installing it?

Actually I've never seen them so I don't know. I remember years back one brand of H.D. truck gas engines used only two quad rings (square edged O-rings) in grooves in the valve stems for valve stem seals and they worked just fine.

but that Navistar re engineered the set up on the 7.3 to battle emmission issues. 7.3 valve seals seal so good, that the stem/guide suffer from a lack of lubrication...

Read it too time after time from those who've never worked a day in an IHC or FoMoCo shop in their life so I take it with a grain of salt unless it came from a 7.3/6.9 mechanic. Same with the story that the '94 turbo IDI's were derated so the upcoming Powerstrokes would look better. Way back then I sure got a different story direct from FoMoCo people.

[drinkypoo]

Originally Posted by LMJD

Same with the story that the '94 turbo IDI's were derated so the upcoming Powerstrokes would look better. Way back then I sure got a different story direct from FoMoCo people.

I'm not saying they were lying, but what did you expect them to say, under NDA? It's a fact that the factory version of the ATS 093 is crippled for firewall clearance or ease of installation (probably mostly for firewall clearance, Ford wasn't about to modify bodies to fit it) and it's also a fact that a 7.3 IDI with a non-factory turbo kit makes similar numbers to a stock '95 'stroke.

How I imagine the situation is that they discovered that it would only be cheap to make it clear if they detuned it, and they said "that's cool, we want people to buy powerstrokes" and the rest is history. That would make it a little from Column A, and a little from Column B.

[chuckster57]

I can tell you from first hand experience that the smashed DP in both the IDI and OBS PSD didn't need to be flattened as much as they did. And yeah, replacing the few parts I did, made a big difference. There are tons of "stories" out there that the IDI was made that way to boost sales of the PSD, but that begs the question why did they do it the Powerstroke engine too?

[LMJD]

How I imagine the situation is that they discovered that it would only be cheap to make it clear if they detuned it, and they said "that's cool, we want people to buy powerstrokes" and the rest is history. That would make it a little from Column A, and a little from Column B.

I rest my case, internet "theory" versus those in the industry.

[drinkypoo]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

There are tons of "stories" out there that the IDI was made that way to boost sales of the PSD, but that begs the question why did they do it the Powerstroke engine too?

Well actually, it only suggests the question But it does do that, and one possible answer is to leave themselves headroom so they could continue to make it more powerful generation by generation through tuning, which is in fact what they did. And since enthusiasts were accomplishing more and faster than Ford was, that suggests that it was deliberate.

As always, I don't mean to suggest that Ford is alone in this or that it's somehow immoral or unethical. They have a whole lot of considerations beyond what the tuners do, too, because they have certain legal obligations regarding warranty parts availability, test procedures for dealerships, et cetera. It's the buyer's responsibility to know what they're buying.



As a general thread response If you (not you chuck, anybody...) believe something simply because someone told you, especially someone with a vested and ongoing financial interest in you believing something positive, you're committing a failure of judgment. The people you talked to might even have believed what they were telling you, and yet been wrong. If you don't have any actual citations to provide, so we don't actually even know what statements you're claiming to be basing your judgment on, it's difficult to know just how to react to your vague non-claim claims.

[farmfuel]

Okay, well I got good news. I called Fel-Pro back after receiving a set of valve seals from the IL plant. I explaned to a man named Hank that It's all the same values, regardless of where its coming from. He told me that he was waiting on my phone call. He removed a set from the shelf and measured the same thing. He said they're moving and down sizing, and they're throwing a lot of stuff away. He came across a set of oil shields that measure what the manual calls for. He asked what my valve stem OD was, and I told him .370- he says his oil shield measures .369.

I told him every ex oil shield i got with the SS part number- the shields were cream colored. The shields that originally came with the head set were white as snow. He said that the set he has were solid white.

He apologised for all the hassle I went through, and let me have the set. So now, come to find out, I've iniatiated a nation-wide recall on this Fel-Pro SS72628-1. Ive called Oreilly's, and my commercial guy said they got a notice to remove them from inventory.

[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by farmfuel

So now, come to find out, I've iniatiated a nation-wide recall on this Fel-Pro SS72628-1. Ive called Oreilly's, and my commercial guy said they got a notice to remove them from inventory.

See what you started!!!!!

just kidding, glad you got it straightened out.

[farmfuel]

Yea thanks, I hope they get it straightened out soon, so the next poor shlub building a motor won't be 3 weeks behind schedule due to a manufacturing flaw. At the end of the day, Im glad they acknowledged an error on their part. At first, I was being told that my calipers were off, or the valves in my engine were 6.9, etc.