i did not write this just found it (everything pasted below link) and was wondering what you guys think about his assessment of the Hypermax kit? Sounds like he might work for Banks
Gale Banks Engineering located in CA. I guess we are all friends here and the guys name is right there anyway. I have met Gale Banks at a training seminar he puts on. I suppose I should also mention I have installed 60+ Banks turbo kits. IIRC 55 were Ford trucks, 2 were Ford vans, and the rest were GM. Banks is well known for turbocharging. Twin Turbo 454 chevy engines power racing boats, they have twin turbo 350 chevy engines, 200 mph automobiles for rich oil tycoons, lotsa dragster and race stuff, plus electronics, on board dyno systems, exhaust systems for motorhomes, and more. Performance and long engine life are what Gale Banks Engineering is all about.
Next would be ATS. I believe it stands for Advance Turbo Systems. Located in Utah or Nevada I forgot which. I don't recall the chief in charge. I probably have it here someplace, but not that critical for this discussion. The company does turbo systems for snowmobiles, turbo kits for Ford & GM Diesel's. They probably have added other products that I don't know about. I should mention some of the castings, and the air filter housing used for the factory 7.3L Ford turbo come from ATS. ATS has wastegated, and non wastegated turbos.
The last one is Hypermax Engineering located near Chicago. The Owner/ Chief is Jerry LaGod. I have not met jerry in person, but I have spoke to him on the phone a time or 2. Jerry was a engineer at the engine plant in Melrose Park IIRC. Hypermax is well known amoung IH Tractor pullers. They make many bolt on upgrades like cylinder heads, nozzles, pumps, and the like for IH engines like the DT466. Hypermax specializes in IH only, doesn't make stuff for John Deere, Massey, or any other make. Jerry does not want a JD tractor that he modified to beat an IH tractor his customer has built using his brand of stuff. I guess he doesn't want to compete against himself, so he does IH only. Same goes for the 6.9L & 7.3Lturbo kits. No chebby & Dodge stuff. NO wastegated turbo's for 6.9's either. Just the plain model for the Ford van and I believe the IH S series. The Pulse system for the Ford trucks.
I evaluate these kits like this: Quality of the engineering, quality of the components, completeness of the kit, If it meets emissions regulations, and cost comes in last. It comes out Banks, ATS, Hypermax. Banks is way ahead of the other 2 in engineering, quality, and completeness. Banks includes the Pyrometer in the kit. ATS and Hypermax do not. Banks uses Stainless for the exhaust, Hypermax, and ATS do not. ATS does not include the turbo down pipe in the kit.
Perhaps the worst part of the Hypermax kit IS the pulse Design. If you look close at the pics you will see the small size of the tubes that feed the turbo. That means the exhaust will flow through at an increased velocity to get the non wastegated turbo to spin faster at low speeds. The problem with this setup is the restriction causes heat to build up in the engine. Hypermax Needs to create a higher boost pressure to increase the power to overcome the restriction in the exhaust which raises the temp of the incoming air, reducing the density, raising the temp in the combustion chamber. A vicious circle in the wrong direction. If you read the fine print:
Quote: Originally Posted by HyperMax To maximize the horsepower of your Pulse Turbo, we recommend the following Hypermax bolt-on parts: Pulse Intercooler, 3.5" Exhaust, Cowl Induction Kit, Smoke Puff Limiter, Pyrometer Gauges
They recommend an intercooler, cowl induction, and puff limiter because of the turbo lag, and problems mentioned above plus the kit does not include the Pyrometer.
Banks is the only one that has designed the kit for maximum air flow which reduces the restriction giving the best volume of airflow at the lowest boost. Best efficiency and best engine life.
Lets do the cost.
Banks. $2651.99 on this site.for the C6. Thats the first one I found. lotsa dealers don't have websites, so you need to shop around. The description says aluminized exhaust. I was told they are all stainless now, but can't confirm that. includes: K&N air filter, Pyrometer and boost gauge, down pipe, every nut, bolt, washer, clamp. Everything. even has the anti-sieze and locktite you need. Even includes the shipping
ATS. $2094.75 Kit. $374.85 Aluminized Exhaust. Down pipe $84.89. Gauges: Pyro $178.21, Boost $54.39 $2786.99 plus shipping if I added right. Comes with a paper air filter.
HyperMax. $1640. C6 pulse kit. Exhaust $225 Boost / Pyro. $253 Intercooler $1445. Cowl induction $68. Puff Limiter $285 $2118 W/O and $3916 with intercooler, cowl induction, and puff limiter. Plus shipping. uses stock air filter
Sometimes the cheapest ain't the best, or the lowest cost. In this case I believe the Banks is the best quality and value.
The bottom line is you Ain't gonna beat Banks for performance, price, or anything else.
Did I mention I don't like the other 2??
</sermon>
Quote: I guess what I was looking for was input from someone who deals in or has used both... or can dissuade me from the price of the Hypermax system for a good reason. I tried my best. I rest my case.
Quote: Because right now, that is the system that appeals to me the most. Plus, Hypermax appears to only cater to the IHC/Ford Diesel, where Banks doesn't. Banks will turbo anything and everything. Gas, Diesel anything. He does consulting for Ford and GM. Probably lots of others. He does consulting for Military stuff. He is a racer and he likes to win. Been around since forever I think.
Anyway I can recommend any of Gale Banks Engineering stuff to anyone. It's top notch stuff.
I don't get it, the guy "thinks" this and "believes" that about all 3 systems and sure makes a lot of assumptions but yet he's a self-proclaimed expert. I sure don't know it all, but I researched both Banks and ATS to death when their latest systems came out and all 3 kits were new and selling like crazy. Didn't care about Hypermax since they're not waste gated. After poking around under a lot of hoods and talking to guys who had installed both, they said, and I agree, the ATS system was way easier to install and was more efficiently engineered which probably entered into Ford's decision to chose the ATS system back in 93 or 94.
Quote:
I should mention some of the castings, and the air filter housing used for the factory 7.3L Ford turbo come from ATS.
It wasn't "some", it was the entire system except for a few minor fittings, oil line, etc, but Ford speced the 2 1/2" exhaust.
Quote:
I don't recall the chief in charge.
I DO recall the chief (owner) in charge, I talked to him on the phone a couple times back then and he said the reason the 093 kits didn't come with a EGT gauge was because if you set the pump as per instructions it was not needed although they DID offer one. Also, the kit DID come with a complete 3" stainless steel exhaust system and straight through muffler. I still have my invoice from back in '93, the exhaust system parts are listed and priced seperately so the buyer could chose what he wanted.
Quote:
ATS does not include the turbo down pipe in the kit.
Yes it does.
Quote:
Banks is the only one that has designed the kit for maximum air flow which reduces the restriction giving the best volume of airflow at the lowest boost. Best efficiency and best engine life.
Both exhaust systems are exactly the same, however Banks offered an extra cost Monster Exhaust (4"). ATS, with all their R&D said that nothing was to be gained by increasing exhaust size over 3".
Quote:
Anyway I can recommend any of Gale Banks Engineering stuff to anyone.
I originally approached both systems at the start with an open mind since I wanted to install the best. Besides the findings I posted above, when I talked to Banks' sales staff 2-3 times the best they could do was say nothing good about their own system but went on and on bad-mouthing the competition which says a lot about a company IMO. When I mentioned I heard FoMoCo was going with the ATS system rather than Banks, all I got was, "Oh yea, we're not touching that deal with a ten foot pole, they got overheating problems like you wouldn't believe."
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Heavy truck and diesel mechanic (thankfully retired after 30+ yrs)
'91 F-250 SC 4X4, 5spd. ATS Turbo, 3:55 diff.
All the turbo kits make the same boost, my ATS 088 isn't wastegated and works great, hypermax has a wastegated turbo so if they aren't using it they're lames.
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1992 F250 XLT 4x4 Super Cab 7.3 IDI E40D 3.55 ATS 088 4"R.C 360k
1982 MBZ 300SD W126 California model w/Sunroof, no EGR
Perhaps the worst part of the Hypermax kit IS the pulse Design. If you look close at the pics you will see the small size of the tubes that feed the turbo. That means the exhaust will flow through at an increased velocity to get the non wastegated turbo to spin faster at low speeds. The problem with this setup is the restriction causes heat to build up in the engine. Hypermax Needs to create a higher boost pressure to increase the power to overcome the restriction in the exhaust which raises the temp of the incoming air, reducing the density, raising the temp in the combustion chamber. A vicious circle in the wrong direction.
This ^^^ quote just sounds like a bunch of bs. He says the increased velocity builds up heat in the engine. How? The velocity of the incoming air is not any greater than any other turbo. The only additional heat would be from the radiant heat from the exhaust side of the turbo. I know that hypermax suggests a 3 1/2 inch exhaust to compensate for the increased exhaust heat. Just sounds too much like a salesman to me.
This ^^^ quote just sounds like a bunch of bs. He says the increased velocity builds up heat in the engine. How? The velocity of the incoming air is not any greater than any other turbo. The only additional heat would be from the radiant heat from the exhaust side of the turbo. I know that hypermax suggests a 3 1/2 inch exhaust to compensate for the increased exhaust heat. Just sounds too much like a salesman to me.
I agree. In the past there's been some real frequent posters here who had the Hypermax system and non ever had any complaints. I checked one out in person years ago and it definitely is a different design than the ATS or Banks. However I prefer a wastegated system by far. They develop max pulling power at a lower RPM therefore you have a much wider power range to work with. Big difference if you tow up mountain passes.
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Heavy truck and diesel mechanic (thankfully retired after 30+ yrs)
'91 F-250 SC 4X4, 5spd. ATS Turbo, 3:55 diff.
If you mean to say that all of the parts on the factory ford turbo system came from ATS. That is incorrect.
Namely the exhaust elbow and down pipe. ATS made neither of those.
Reread it, I said Ford speced it to be smaller, not to mention the fact that you don't know any more than I do whether ATS furnished the smaller elbow and exhaust system or not. Chances are they did. ATS didn't "make" the straight through 3" muffler on their big exhaust kits either, it was a Walker, but they sure furnished it.
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Heavy truck and diesel mechanic (thankfully retired after 30+ yrs)
'91 F-250 SC 4X4, 5spd. ATS Turbo, 3:55 diff.
All be darned, we all know it's a Garrett, but I'd have sworn I got my Garret turbo, elbow, downpipe, etc, from ATS.
The original article is referencing that ATS made some of the castings. Which we did.
The drain pedestal, up pipe, cast y, air box were all done in house.
The 3" exhaust elbow and DP is always referred to as the "ATS upgrade" and is thought to of been built by ATS.
The exhaust elbows and downpipes were all done by Garrett and sold solely to us, and Ford.
It isn't a debate of weather the ATS kit was complete or not, or if ATS supplied the parts. Of course it was complete, and obviously ATS offered the parts. I was notating that ATS did not build some of the parts.
IMO there's not much of a "we" in the discussion. Any similarity between the current ATS and the original company way back when these kits were selling, which is the subject of the thread, is purely coincidental. First, it's now in a different state, different owner, and by the magazine adds--- purple transmissions, etc, it has a completely different format, logos, and sells components not even close to what the original ATS carried. Also, if Steve, the former owner, and a class guy, still owned the company and knew of the back-biting, name-calling, cussing, and insulting that occured on certain threads on 3 of the other IDI sites certain people wouldn't have stood a chance in hell of ever getting on his payroll.
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Heavy truck and diesel mechanic (thankfully retired after 30+ yrs)
'91 F-250 SC 4X4, 5spd. ATS Turbo, 3:55 diff.
IMO there's not much of a "we" in the discussion. Any similarity between the current ATS and the original company way back when these kits were selling, which is the subject of the thread, is purely coincidental.
Once again you prove how little you really know. I wouldn't have to come on these forums and clean house if people like you would stop spewing misinformation about the company, product base, and engine information.
While the name is coincidental.....the current ATS (automatic transmission specialists) bought out the old ATS (advanced turbo systems), all of its rights, and continued production of the 093 kit for years. We own the rights to all of the tooling, and we have all of the remaining NOS. Then, produced the Aurora2000 IDI kit which was based off of the 093.
Also, our turbo shop manger Evan was employed by Steve, and was part of designing the 093 turbo kit. So yes, I do know what I'm talking about.
Myself and others have tried getting along with you, enlightening you, and tried to coexist. You are constantly confrontational and can never admit you are wrong... even when people put the proof right in front of you.
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