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Old 01-07-2008, 10:13 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Starter/Ring gear problems

I have an 1983 F250 4x4 6.9 with a T19... Recently it started doing something pretty screwy... When starting, the starter engages like normal, cranks the engine fine for a second or two, then disengages before the engine is started and just whirrs...

I'm one of the unlucky souls with the oldest style starter that can't be replaced with the mitsu gear reduction style... But I got a new starter in there, and it had the same problem, even worse actually...

I've looked at the whole ring gear and there's NO missing teeth, and the teeth look like they're in OK shape... I've included some pictures of the ring gear teeth in case someone here has seen a lot more ring gears than me and can better assess the condition...

So I'm not sure what my problem is, my first thought was that the starter clutch/bendix (I'm not sure whether this one has a clutch or a bedix) is bad and is allowing the starter to disengage too early, but the new starter didn't help (unless I got a bad reman, I've had that happen before)... So the only other possibility I can imagine is that the ring gear is bad, but I've seen ring gears in much worse shape that still cranked like normal... And I certainly don't want to get involved with doing a ring gear job that is not absolutly necessary...

Any opinions?

http://s252.photobucket.com/albums/h...=flywheel3.jpg
http://s252.photobucket.com/albums/h...=flywheel2.jpg
http://s252.photobucket.com/albums/h...=flywheel1.jpg
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Old 01-07-2008, 10:50 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Starter/Ring gear problems

Those are great pictures... You need a pat on the back for those. Some posters have the worst fuzzy pics that can't show us anything.... The gear looks fine but these motors start and stop on 1 of 3 places on the gear. You need to examine the entire gear for wear. Other than that maybe its the solenoid thats mounted on the passenger side fender well. Its really cheap but don't go replacing it till you figure out if its bad. No need to throw money at this hoping it will fix it.
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Old 01-07-2008, 11:55 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Starter/Ring gear problems

Yes I would monitor voltage at the starter and see if the voltage drops just when the Bendix disengages.
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Old 01-07-2008, 11:56 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Starter/Ring gear problems

I would suggest replacing the bendix drive if it is exposed and not like the Mitsu.....Normally when cranking with pressure on the bendix they do not spin out... but yours may be old and worn to the point where it will do that if a piston fires and releases the pressure a small amount.
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Old 01-07-2008, 12:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Starter/Ring gear problems

Good info... I did examine the whole ring gear, it all looks pretty much the same... the parts that I posted are, if anything, the worst... I turned the starter over to my local starter shop, and they are going to replace the drive gear... I have a hard time believing that my orig. 1983 starter killed its drive and that, by just a coincidence, the new rebuild that I got had the same problem right out of the box, but these things do happen... I once got two bad rebuilt mitsus in a row when I had an '86...

Here's why I sort of fear a ring gear problem even though the RG LOOKS ok to me: (TSB from Alldata):

Article No. 85-10-21

STARTER MOTOR - RING GEAR - EXCESSIVE WEAR - (6.9L)

LIGHT TRUCK 1983-85 E & F SERIES
CALIBRATION: 6.9L ONLY

Subject vehicles which have experienced repeated milling of the ring gear should have the existing starter motor replaced with the newly released starter (E5TZ- 11002-B), supplied by Mitsubishi, which has improved length of drive gear engagement. Simply replacing the drive gear on the existing starter motor will not cure the milling concern. Additionally, when installing the new starter, the ring gear must also be replaced (Part No. E3TZ-6384-A), in accordance with the instructions outlined in Section 22-08-30 of the 1985 Truck Shop Manual (Volume B, Engine).

After replacing the starter assembly, two (2) nut/ washer assemblies will be required to secure the electrical cables to the starter motor assembly. (See parts list).

PART NUMBER PART NAME CLASS

E5TZ-11002-B Starter Motor Assy. R
E3TZ-6384-A Ring Gear A
N802775-S36 Nut-Washer Assy. S
(M5 x .80)
N802776-S36 Nut-Washer Assy. S
(M10 x 1.5)

OTHER APPLICABLE ARTICLES: None
WARRANTY STATUS: Reimbursable within the provisions of the Warranty and Policy Manual.
OPERATION: SP6384A85

TIME: F Series Econoline
4x2 ................ T19 3.3 -
4x2 ................. C6 3.1 3.1
4x4 ................ T19 4.2 -
4x4 ................. C6 4.2 -
OPERATION: SP6384A185
TIME: Extra time if equipped with
coupling shaft 0.2 0.2
OPERATION: SP6384A285
TIME: Extra time if equipped with
full floor carpet 0.5 -

OPERATION: SP6384A385
TIME: Extra time if equipped with
skid plate 0.2 -
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Old 01-07-2008, 02:15 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Starter/Ring gear problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... And I certainly don't want to get involved with doing a ring gear job that is not absolutly necessary...

Any opinions?
</div></div>
Yours looks very good. When bad, there will be about a 2" area with about 90% of the length of the teeth totally chewed up and gone.
I can't help you on the starter problem though. I just remember the very early Ford diesels *did* have an ongoing problem with starters. Before diesel pickups became so popular, what few people (wealthy) at our cutting horse events that had 6.9s spent half the time after the event with the hood up because of starter failure but I never knew the cause. Too bad the late 7.3 Mitsu won't fit without replacing the ring gear, mine has lasted 239,000 without needed a rebuild.

I see by your last post, Ford is still living in the same dream-world as far as their flat rate times go. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img]
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Old 01-08-2008, 11:11 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Starter/Ring gear problems

Problem solved... It was a starter issue afterall... Bad drive... I got worried when I installed an out of the box rebuilt from the parts shop and it had the same problem, I figured it must be something besides the starter, but the rebuilt must have had the same problem as my old starter... What are the chances... I took my old starter to my local mennonite starter shop and they immediately figured out that the drive clutch was bad (apparently what I had been calling a bendix was actually a clutch... According to the mennonites, all starters made after the 60s use clutches instead of bendixes, but most people still call them bendixes)... They replaced it for $40 and I'm back in business...

Thanks
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