Symptoms of bad injectors - Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com
Ford Diesel Forum / Powerstroke Forum
Ford Diesel Forum / Powerstroke Forum
Go Back   Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com > Ford Diesels > 6.9L Diesels

6.9L Diesels Technical discussion of topics related to vehicles powered by the 6.9 Liter In-Direct Injection Navistar engines.

TheDieselstop.com is the premier Diesel Truck Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-26-2005, 08:08 PM   #1 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Spencnaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 2,677
My Photos: (14)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Symptoms of bad injectors

Hi got a question from a friend's truck.

He had just put in a new injector pump, however the truck idles extremely rough for about a minute and then dies.

This symptom started before the injector pump was installed. I looked at it tonight and hooked up the throttle linkage, the batteries, cycled the glowplugs and hit the starter.

The truck idles extremely roughly and a large amount of black soot came out of the exhaust.

My question is this: If the previous injector pump went bad, could plastic bits from the 'ring' in the pump have clogged the pump? It's running like one or more of the injectors arent doing their job.

The timing was not altered. Just the IP was removed and the drive gear was left alone.

I'll keep searching the posts here for an answer, in the meantime, any input would be most graciously accepted. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]
__________________
The Green Monster: 2001 F250 Powerstroke, 2WD, ZF6 transmission. Bully Dog GT Tuner set in tow mode. MotorSilk boric oxide added to engine, transmission and diff. Showing 30mpg on the freeway running home brew biodiesel. NTZ 1/2 Micron bypass oil filter. Dieselsite coolant filter. 4" open turbo back exhaust. Ford AIS intake. Donaldson ELF7405 oil filter. Caterpillar ELC next on the list.
Spencnaz is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-26-2005, 09:17 PM   #2 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Wallingford, Connecticut
Posts: 2,796
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Re: Symptoms of bad injectors

How many miles on your buddy's truck? On injectors? A lift pump is roughly $25. If he can spare the quarter, I'd start there. If it is still running rough, you may want to play with the IP timing. If that doesn't help, then you may want to invest in injectors. Good luck, Tim
__________________
'94 F250, 4X4, 7.3, E40D, 4.10, 147K
tim94f250 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-26-2005, 11:00 PM   #3 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Spencnaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 2,677
My Photos: (14)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Re: Symptoms of bad injectors

The IP is a new reman unit. The lift pump is supplying the IP with enough fuel, this was confirmed before the new IP was installed.

As for timing, I was told that it wasnt touched. The IP was just removed without moving the drive gear.

Now I do have one question, if the IP is removed, I assume that there is a drive key on the IP drive shaft to linked up with the gear right?

The engine would turn over, in a very luggish way like it was trying to light off but couldn't and there was a thick grey smoke from the exhaust pipes, indicating to me that there is a n unburned fuel issue.
__________________
The Green Monster: 2001 F250 Powerstroke, 2WD, ZF6 transmission. Bully Dog GT Tuner set in tow mode. MotorSilk boric oxide added to engine, transmission and diff. Showing 30mpg on the freeway running home brew biodiesel. NTZ 1/2 Micron bypass oil filter. Dieselsite coolant filter. 4" open turbo back exhaust. Ford AIS intake. Donaldson ELF7405 oil filter. Caterpillar ELC next on the list.
Spencnaz is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-26-2005, 11:26 PM   #4 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Port Ludlow, Wash.
Posts: 323
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Re: Symptoms of bad injectors

[ QUOTE ]
As for timing, I was told that it wasnt touched. The IP was just removed without moving the drive gear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, that's not an adequate method for IP replacement. Just not moving the IP gear is not going to get the timing very close on the replacement IP.
__________________
Al S. asavage@iname.com

SOLD1984 F-250 4x4 C6, BW1345, 3.54 D70, XLT extra cab, box-stock so far.
asavage is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-26-2005, 11:29 PM   #5 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Spencnaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 2,677
My Photos: (14)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Re: Symptoms of bad injectors

So, with the symptoms that I've described:

1. It's either a couple of bad injectors that got trashed when the old IP went gunneysack.

2. IP timing is off somehow

I'm partial to the first solution as it was running like this before the new IP was installed.

Could a blocked fuel return line cause the missing and rough idle?
__________________
The Green Monster: 2001 F250 Powerstroke, 2WD, ZF6 transmission. Bully Dog GT Tuner set in tow mode. MotorSilk boric oxide added to engine, transmission and diff. Showing 30mpg on the freeway running home brew biodiesel. NTZ 1/2 Micron bypass oil filter. Dieselsite coolant filter. 4" open turbo back exhaust. Ford AIS intake. Donaldson ELF7405 oil filter. Caterpillar ELC next on the list.
Spencnaz is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-26-2005, 11:38 PM   #6 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Port Ludlow, Wash.
Posts: 323
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Re: Symptoms of bad injectors

[ QUOTE ]
1. It's either a couple of bad injectors that got trashed when the old IP went gunneysack.

2. IP timing is off somehow

[/ QUOTE ]

Or both.

The thing that bothers me about this is that it runs for a minute and then dies. That doesn't sound like one or more bad injectors to me.

You're absolutely certain that you have adequate fuel volume to the IP (that is, out of the filter)? If so, I'd look hard at the IP timing first. But that's easy for me to say, I'm far enough away from you that I won't get sucked into helping [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
__________________
Al S. asavage@iname.com

SOLD1984 F-250 4x4 C6, BW1345, 3.54 D70, XLT extra cab, box-stock so far.
asavage is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-27-2005, 12:02 AM   #7 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Spencnaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 2,677
My Photos: (14)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Re: Symptoms of bad injectors

Yeah the timing issue bothers me too. I dont have a way of static timing it.

I'm going to pick the brains of a neighbor-friend who had 6.9s and then Powerstrokes for some thoughts on what's wrong.

He has alot more experience with these engines than I.
__________________
The Green Monster: 2001 F250 Powerstroke, 2WD, ZF6 transmission. Bully Dog GT Tuner set in tow mode. MotorSilk boric oxide added to engine, transmission and diff. Showing 30mpg on the freeway running home brew biodiesel. NTZ 1/2 Micron bypass oil filter. Dieselsite coolant filter. 4" open turbo back exhaust. Ford AIS intake. Donaldson ELF7405 oil filter. Caterpillar ELC next on the list.
Spencnaz is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-27-2005, 12:58 AM   #8 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Posts: 4,103
My Photos: (7)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Re: Symptoms of bad injectors

Well if the timing gear was not disturbed, all that means is that the basic timing hasn't been altered. The pump timing could still be way advanced or way reatrded. Start by seeing if the timing mark on the IP mounting flange and the top of the IP match. In a reman unit, this is no guarantee of accurate timing, but it should get you close. Starting and then dying usuually means either air in the system, retarded timing, or a trashed IP. I would almost like to see you pull the injectors and have them pop tested just to rule that out as a problem, but it's a hassle for something that may not be needed. Good luck,
J.D.
__________________
J.D.'s Fords: 1986 F-250 6.9 diesel Solid State Glow Plug System 3.55 gears C-6 2WD 178,960 miles.... it still runs pretty good!
Wishlist H-max turbo, T19 tranny,
1989 Ford Ranger ga$$er, non runner, soon to be donated or scrapped!
jdkline is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-27-2005, 01:41 AM   #9 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Wallingford, Connecticut
Posts: 2,796
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Re: Symptoms of bad injectors

I just thought of something. Is it possible that you installed the injection pump 180 degrees from the correct timing? In other words, remove the IP, and rotate the driveshaft 360 degrees to make up the 180 degrees. Give it a shot.
__________________
'94 F250, 4X4, 7.3, E40D, 4.10, 147K
tim94f250 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-27-2005, 09:59 AM   #10 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ocala, Florida
Posts: 49
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Re: Symptoms of bad injectors

[ QUOTE ]
Hi got a question from a friend's truck.

He had just put in a new injector pump, however the truck idles extremely rough for about a minute and then dies.

This symptom started before the injector pump was installed.

[/ QUOTE ]


Could it be an air leak in the return lines?
h400exinfl is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-27-2005, 11:41 AM   #11 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Port Ludlow, Wash.
Posts: 323
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Re: Symptoms of bad injectors

[ QUOTE ]
Is it possible that you installed the injection pump 180 degrees from the correct timing? In other words, remove the IP, and rotate the driveshaft 360 degrees to make up the 180 degrees.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only way you can get the IP 180 out is if the IP gear was removed and installed 180 out. If the IP gear housing wasn't removed, it's still correct.

However, having the IP mounting rotated even 1/4" either way will drastically affect the way it runs.
__________________
Al S. asavage@iname.com

SOLD1984 F-250 4x4 C6, BW1345, 3.54 D70, XLT extra cab, box-stock so far.
asavage is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-27-2005, 12:35 PM   #12 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Posts: 4,103
My Photos: (7)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Re: Symptoms of bad injectors

If still saying it's either an air leak or the timing is off. See where those timing marks are before you do anything else,
J.D.
__________________
J.D.'s Fords: 1986 F-250 6.9 diesel Solid State Glow Plug System 3.55 gears C-6 2WD 178,960 miles.... it still runs pretty good!
Wishlist H-max turbo, T19 tranny,
1989 Ford Ranger ga$$er, non runner, soon to be donated or scrapped!
jdkline is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-27-2005, 01:13 PM   #13 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Snohomish, Washington
Posts: 186
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Re: Symptoms of bad injectors

I am fairly new to these engines, but the thing that bothers me is it was doing it before the pump was replaced. I can testify that the timing mark on a remanufactured pump may be incorrect for your truck. That happened to me. I lined up the casting mark on the pump housing (12 o'clock) and my truck runs very well. Removing the return line from the back of the engine and running fuel line to a can or jar will let you know if there is blockage back by the tank. Black smoke does not sound like air. If you can keep it running, you could try cracking the injector lines, one at a time. If it runs worse, likely that injector is OK. If no change, may be a bad injector. On timing, you could rotate the IP CCW and see if the black smoke lightens up. I think that if you have some stuck or leaking injectors, you will hear louder knocking from the good ones if this causes the timing to be too far advanced. If you advance the timing and all seems to go well, have it timed properly ASAP.

My reasoning: White smoke = lean, advanced, or air. Black smoke = dirty/leaking injectors, retarded, incorrectly adjusted pump. I am not sure what a blocked return would do, but I think rough running is one of the symptoms. Try switching tanks, can't hurt. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]
John
__________________
'84 F-250 Extended Cab, 4X4, 4 speed. Great body and interier, but suspect "rode hard and put away wet" more than once. Solid State GP controller. A work in process.
Baar is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-27-2005, 02:41 PM   #14 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Spencnaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 2,677
My Photos: (14)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Re: Symptoms of bad injectors

One of the symptoms that I witnessed points to a retarded injection pump setting.

The idling was so rough, that the entire truck was shaking like an epileptic, plus the sound of missing cylinders.
__________________
The Green Monster: 2001 F250 Powerstroke, 2WD, ZF6 transmission. Bully Dog GT Tuner set in tow mode. MotorSilk boric oxide added to engine, transmission and diff. Showing 30mpg on the freeway running home brew biodiesel. NTZ 1/2 Micron bypass oil filter. Dieselsite coolant filter. 4" open turbo back exhaust. Ford AIS intake. Donaldson ELF7405 oil filter. Caterpillar ELC next on the list.
Spencnaz is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-27-2005, 09:56 PM   #15 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Posts: 4,103
My Photos: (7)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Re: Symptoms of bad injectors

I understand that if the timing is more retarded than 6.5* BTDC then there will be a miss at idle. John's suggestion about checking injs, by loosening them is correct, if you have a real bad one there will be no change in that cylinder when you loosen it. However the fact that there is change doesn't mean that inj. is good. Just that it's firing. There is a specification for pop off pressure and spray pattern, if these are off enough, it can cause problems. Black smoke usually means too much fuel or not enough air so unburned fuel. Possible causes, bad injectors, advanced timing, plugged fuel return lines, plugged fuel or air filter. I know I said retarded timing but it could also be too far advanced. You should probably play with the timing some and see if that makes a difference. Here's the easy way, start it if you can get it running, remove the smaller connector behind the FSS, this is the cold timing advance, it advances the timing 2-3 degrees, so unplugging it(assuming it is connected and operational) will have the same effect as retarding the timing 2-3 degrees. If it gets worse or won't satrt, assume you are too retarded , if it helps, assume that the timing is too far advanced. Conversely if you want to adbvance the timing without moving the pump put 12V directly to the CTA terminal and that should give you 2-3* of advance...
__________________
J.D.'s Fords: 1986 F-250 6.9 diesel Solid State Glow Plug System 3.55 gears C-6 2WD 178,960 miles.... it still runs pretty good!
Wishlist H-max turbo, T19 tranny,
1989 Ford Ranger ga$$er, non runner, soon to be donated or scrapped!
jdkline is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com > Ford Diesels > 6.9L Diesels

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



Wheel & Tire Center

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:11 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.