What's missing? Pics Included - Diesel Forum

Coolball · 11-08-2009, 06:21 PM

New member also new to diesels. There is a lot of great information here that's helped me on a new project already, thanks. I am wondering on a few things that might be missing on this truck and hopefully you guys on the boards can point me in the right direction.

Problem: 85 F250 won't start. It's been sitting for a number of years before I picked it up. Put fresh gas in it, changed all the glow plugs, fixed the previous owners ignition wiring issues. GPC is disabled, bypassed to manual switch. Relay is good, voltage at plugs is good, voltage to injection pump good, seems like everything electrical is checking out from what I can tell. There is a couple harnesses I thing might be missing the part so if anyone can tell me what to look for in the following pictures that would be helpful. Also during cranking there is white smoke coming out of the intake port for the air cleaner. Air leak/blockage somewhere? Air in the fuel system? What would cause this?

Link to the smoke coming out of the intake: YouTube - White Smoke

First Pic: Drivers fender well - pined out to diesel warning lamps in dashboard R/Y, R/W, Black and also a Red wire with ring terminal in the same harness. Is there a module that this plugs into...what would it be called so I can find one?

Second Pic: Passenger fender well. Blue wire has a harness spade on it but I can't see anything this goes to nor find it correctly in the diagrams. It's running in the same harness going to the (round thing?) as seen in the picture.

Third Pic: Passenger fender well. Harness has one spade in it, two black wires coming out of the back one large and one small.

Could any of these connectors/symptoms be keeping this from starting? I am also waiting until Monday to pick up a steering column from the guy up the street, is there anything regarding the wiring in that column at the turn signal switches causing no start? Ignition switch is working manually okay. Thanks all.

Joe Mc · 11-08-2009, 06:58 PM

Do you know why the truck was parked?
The connector in the first picture is the water in fuel light from the stock water separator, they did you a favor removing that piece of junk, but you should have another one in the fuel system.
Make sure you have 12 volts at the fss(Fuel Shutoff Solenoid) both with the key-on and while cranking. Of the 2 wires going to the IP(Injection-Pump) the one closer to the front bumper is the fss.
The white smoke could be a timing problem or it could be blow-by, try removing the oil filler cap and see if it is huffing a lot while cranking.

cdnsarguy · 11-08-2009, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Put fresh gas in it

Heck there's the problem right there.......

White smoke could be compression returning to the intake. How fast is the engine turning on the starter......... if you can count RPM's it is too slow. Need good batteries 850 CCA minimum and good starter.

How long have you held the GPs on........5 seconds or 5 minutes. If you connect a 12v wire jumper wire directly to the front drives side (USA) spade terminal on the IP the FSS will open and fuel will be pressureized and sent to the injectors on start attempt. To stop the engine remove the wire........ once you have it running you can check all the wires/connectors. The FSS is the only wire that allows start and stop of the engine. More info on the truck as to trans, last fuel filter replacement, fuel pressure and quantity on cranking.

Do a pressure and flow test of the fuel pump at the Schrader valve on the filter header (FSS- fuel shutoff solenoid disconnected on IP). Remove the tire valve core and hook a hose and pressure guage on it should see 4-6 psi when starter cranking engine over. Then do a fuel quantity test same place, should see 1/3 pint in 10 seconds of starter engine cranking, route fuel to a suitable container with a hose. When all finished hook up the FSS wire .
If there is a problem with the lift pump and you are changing it, ensure the new pump comes with instructions as to correct installation procedure if it is the newer model pump with the almost straight arm.

Coolball · 11-08-2009, 09:52 PM

Thank you for the reply. I can only speculate why the truck was parked but it was scheduled for impound and original owner had it towed to the guy's property I bought it from. The key to the truck was lost and my guess is d.u.i. or something. Still has the writing on the window. Last tag was from 06'

The FSS has 12v with key on and in crank, there is 3 wires in the front IP connector, R, R/G & W but there is 12 volts there. The other connector yellow wire also has 12v in on and during crank.

Took the oil cap off and turned it over and in fact it did huff a bunch out of the filler tube instead of the intake. Is that blow by? Or...

I did have to replace a fuel line from the fuel filter to the "T" in the injector line. I read to loosen the fuel line on top of an injector and check for fuel is that correct or is there a better way?

Coolball · 11-08-2009, 09:56 PM

Cdnsarguy, It's been cranking pretty good I put my optima yellow top out of another rig in there along with one of the batteries that will need to be replaced and had it jumped during most of the cranks. I've been at this thing for week.

cdnsarguy · 11-08-2009, 10:10 PM

Good....starter speed is a must. Did you replace the fuel filter yet.....re read my post above I added some things. Also visit my photo link for some info and pics. Do you have the 85/86 wiring diagram.

Coolball · 11-09-2009, 12:13 AM

Thank you for the info, nice gallery. I have the wiring diagrams, found a link to them under Joe Mc's gallery after extensive Google searching and also the Chilton came with the truck which includes the diesel model but have found that one a little lacking.

The new plugs have only been cycled for a max of 6 seconds at a time....the old ones well yep they were autolites and all bad, and a few hard to remove. Changed them out with Delco 8g which are 10.5v plugs which I don't know if those are any better.

So sounds like the IP is the possible culprit...even though it's getting juice without a jumper on start and crank. I can hear the pump click once when voltage is applied. Will run the fuel checks and post back. Don't know when the last time the filter was changed but couldn't hurt after sitting around that long. I read diesel isn't prone to gelling because of the cetane levels or something?

Not sure about the trans, automatic 3 speed, 4x4, trans code is K, axle code is C9 let me know if I missed anything.

Coolball · 11-09-2009, 02:24 PM

New fuel filter on and happened to notice the old one was only about half full. Filled the new one up and going to try and bleed the fuel system tonight after work. Everybody wants too much for a fuel pressure test kit around here so I might just order one online for 1/3 the price.

Update: ok all the injectors are getting fuel, I opened the top lines and each was spurting with the timing during crank. Checked the fuel flow at the schrader valve and it was plenty. Looks like the fuel system is operational. Any ideas on what to check next? I'm waiting on a compression test kit from a buddy. I did notice the turn over seems just a bit slower then what it should even with a charger on start hooked to the battery and the other one jumped. Could it be that there just isn't enough turn over to start this thing?

Coolball · 11-09-2009, 09:15 PM

Forgot to ask, I read these can't jump time would it be worth while to try the timing or am I more liable to mess something up.

Thanks.

hougie · 11-10-2009, 08:34 PM

i'm just gonna throw this in there, i know everyone says it's bad but i have been using it for two years to fire mine up. (before new motor, completely unrelated) Give it a snort of ether, if ya wanna be real safe you can disconnect glow plugs

Coolball · 11-10-2009, 08:47 PM

I was just thinking the same thing. The GPC is bypassed so no way they will glow unless I jump it. I poured a little fresh diesel in the intake but now with the new batteries when I turn it over there is a hissing noise sounds like from one cylinder...just posted about it. I'd love to rip this thing apart but not as much as I just want it to start and run lol. Thanks.

Joe Mc · 11-11-2009, 11:15 AM

Do Not Ever Pour Anything into the intake!!!
There is so little room at the top of the stroke that you could hydro-lock the engine damaging the pistons or bending rods.

Joe Mc · 11-11-2009, 11:33 AM

NO timing belt or chain on these engines, just gears. If the 2 big bolts that hold down the IP gear cover look like they haven't seen a wrench in 20 years then you are probably ok there. If the IP in sitting mostly straight-up, then that should be close enough to start.
1985 was a change year for the block. Earlier blocks were thiner around the block heater and there have been some reports that these blocks can crack around the block heater. This issue has gone back and forth on this board, but in mid 85 IP changed the block and made it thicker around the block heater.

The updated casting was implemented starting with block number 173828 (which translates to roughly halfway through the '85 model year). You may not want to risk using the block heater if yours is an earlier block, but plugging in the heater 3 or 4 hours before you try to start it makes it much easier to start.

I didn't know that you were looking for the schematics, but I am glad you found them. My wife did a nice job of cleaning them up and formatting them for standard printing paper, they look a lot better than the ones I started with.

Coolball · 11-11-2009, 02:13 PM

Thanks Joe MC, I read about the block heater issue. I did plug it in for a few hours once before knowing about it but it didn't help. Crud on the not pouring anything in the intake...didn't realize how little the clearance is. I did try the ether today and still nothing, not even a rumble after two tries. Seems like the intake isn't taking in maybe...I just don't know. Have the batteries charging up again hoping it will work. Should there be something coming out of the exhaust? I've been curious about that since there isn't a thing at all. I've turned it over and gone back there and checked and even smelled but nothing.

Edit: oh yeah and definitely thank you for putting those diagrams up. Much more detailed then the basics of the book and that's what I have been working off of after printing them. Nice and neat!

Joe Mc · 11-11-2009, 04:07 PM

After cranking for a little bit you should be seeing white smoke and a definite diesel smell from the exhaust. Makes me wonder if the exhaust is somehow plugged, maybe a mouse nest or something? Do you have duel or single pipes?
In many ways if you think the pipe is plugged the easiest thing would be to cut the pipe and plan on getting it welded or use a stainless-steel band clamp to repair the pipe. Exhaust bolts are often troublesome.