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Old 04-28-2005, 11:04 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Can I tow a fifth wheel trailer with a goose neck hitch?

[ QUOTE ]
Now, take the same trailer, and add an 18" (1.5 foot) goosneck extension, and here is what you get with the same 8,000 pound force.
8,000 lbs(1.5 feet) = 12,000 foot-pounds of torque. That is over twice the designed torque or bending moment rating of the trailer frame!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys must be hanging your trailers and trucks from helicopters. I don't think an 8000 pound trailer puts 8000 lbs of torque on a truck. I can push a pickup on level ground. Does that mean I'm putting out 6000 pounds of torque?

I agree with your concepts and they are all true. I just don't think the numbers are quite a large as you say.
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Old 04-28-2005, 12:07 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Can I tow a fifth wheel trailer with a goose neck hitch?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now, take the same trailer, and add an 18" (1.5 foot) goosneck extension, and here is what you get with the same 8,000 pound force.
8,000 lbs(1.5 feet) = 12,000 foot-pounds of torque. That is over twice the designed torque or bending moment rating of the trailer frame!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys must be hanging your trailers and trucks from helicopters. I don't think an 8000 pound trailer puts 8000 lbs of torque on a truck. I can push a pickup on level ground. Does that mean I'm putting out 6000 pounds of torque?

I agree with your concepts and they are all true. I just don't think the numbers are quite a large as you say.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may be true, the forces would never be that great, but your missing the point, it is not the numbers that are important, it is the fact that you will overstress your trailer frame by over two times the designed stress of the trailer.

And yes, you may have towed your trailer for tens of thousands of miles with an extension on it without any trouble. Good thing it was designed to be stouter than it needed to be, or you would have broken it by now.

BTW, 8,000 pounds of force is not unheard of at the pin, here is why... Force equals mass times acceleration. So if you have an 8,000 pound trailer traveling at 60 MPH, and you slam on the breaks, giving a deceleration of 5 mph per second (12 seconds to fully stop) then your force at the pin is 8,000lbs(-5 mph/sec), or -40,000 lbs (negative force just means pushing forward instead of backward)total ove rthe 12 seconds, divide by 12 seconds, and you get a force of 3,333 pounds at the pin. Multiply that by 1.5 feet on your 5th wheel extension, to get leverage, and you have 5,000 foot pounds, which is the design load of your trailer, if you reference the last post... This is over a relatively leisurely stop, so a harder stop would be bad...

To the man that has tens of thousands of miles towing with this setup, you are probably okay. 25% FOS on a design load is common in buildings, but i am guessing a dynamic situation like a trailer has a 150% or even 200% design FOS. So you could probably be fine, but if your trailer has a weak weld, or a defect that wouldn't otherwise be a problem, a gooseneck extension could put it over the edge. It is your choice, just make sure you know that you are putting additional stresses in your rig that it was not designed to handle. Do not fall for the fallacy that has been stated here that it is an "apples to apples" comparison.
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Old 04-28-2005, 12:08 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Can I tow a fifth wheel trailer with a goose neck hitch?

Hi Hoss,

[ QUOTE ]
...Now, take the same trailer, and add an 18" (1.5 foot) goosneck extension, and here is what you get with the same 8,000 pound force.
8,000 lbs(1.5 feet) = 12,000 foot-pounds of torque. That is over twice the designed torque or bending moment rating of the trailer frame!!!!...

[/ QUOTE ]


I think that would be 8640lbs. 8000(12/13=1.08)=8640lbs
You would only need to figure a 13" difference between a 5th bolster plate and GN ball 4" high.

8000 x .5=4000/.75=5334lbs, math check 5334 x .75 = 4000.5lbs

The design bending moment on a "beam" in tension would be 1.6 times the given load shear or 12,800lbs (1.6 x 8000=12,800) from the AISC (American Institute of Steel Construction) design tables.

New load shear, (12800x1.08=13824) 13824lbs at a 13" extension. 12800-13824= 1024lbs over design limit.

Of course were just guessing here as we don't really know how the mfg calculated there frame work as we can't see there design so either figure could be correct.




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Old 04-28-2005, 12:50 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: Can I tow a fifth wheel trailer with a goose neck hitch?

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Hoss,

[ QUOTE ]
...Now, take the same trailer, and add an 18" (1.5 foot) goosneck extension, and here is what you get with the same 8,000 pound force.
8,000 lbs(1.5 feet) = 12,000 foot-pounds of torque. That is over twice the designed torque or bending moment rating of the trailer frame!!!!...

[/ QUOTE ]


I think that would be 8640lbs. 8000(12/13=1.08)=8640lbs
You would only need to figure a 13" difference between a 5th bolster plate and GN ball 4" high.

8000 x .5=4000/.75=5334lbs, math check 5334 x .75 = 4000.5lbs

The design bending moment on a "beam" in tension would be 1.6 times the given load shear or 12,800lbs (1.6 x 8000=12,800) from the AISC (American Institute of Steel Construction) design tables.

New load shear, (12800x1.08=13824) 13824lbs at a 13" extension. 12800-13824= 1024lbs over design limit.

Of course were just guessing here as we don't really know how the mfg calculated there frame work as we can't see there design so either figure could be correct.




[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smokin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I was being lazy, just wanted to make my point. I did not do any looking up of refernces, and yes, you are right, i overstated the length of the extension, which makes a big difference. Thanks for the correction. Fact of the matter, it is over design load, so I would be careful when doing this...
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Old 04-30-2005, 03:19 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Can I tow a fifth wheel trailer with a goose neck hitch?

5 years and 40K+ miles on a 1995 Dutchman 30RK 5er with a Ranch Hitch Adapter and no issues. I have a scale ticket from a trip to Montana 3 years ago showing 22,500# gross weight. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
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Old 04-30-2005, 08:22 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Re: Can I tow a fifth wheel trailer with a goose neck hitch?

What kind of babble are you talking about the fifthwheel with adapter mounts in the same spot.The fifthwheel pin is made to ajust up or down. Sounds like a few people are to educated for their on good.Measure the hitch on a fifthwheel and you will find it about 8 foot from the backstop. They are resest because fithwheels are made longer than the goose.The hitch mounts in the bed of the truck at a position to allow movement of trailer to pivot without hitting something.The trailer must have the measurement of the pin to the corner of the towing vehicle If it dont it hits.The stress you get Is from the wieght of the trailer and the side to side swaying that you get from driving on our great roads and the difference in hieghts from bridges and road surface.
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Old 05-02-2005, 02:46 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: Can I tow a fifth wheel trailer with a goose neck hitch?

I am talking about leverage, Toilet, not the fact that it mounts in the same spot. It does mount in the same location, but the 5th wheel adapter is an extension, right? Ever use a pipe or breaker bar to lengthen your wrench to get a stuck nut off? Same story, you lengthen the pin off the trailer, you get more leverage to the trailer frame.

The 5th wheel hitch sits above the bed of the truck, so the little short, dinky pin on the trailer can reach it and hook up to it. Short, dinky pin transmits very little leverage to the frame of the trailer. Leverage in this case is transmitted to the bed of the pickup, which is okay.

The gooseneck hitch sits right on the bed of the truck, lower than the 5th wheel hitch, meaning the pin from the trailer must be longer, which means that the leverage goes to the trailer, not to the bed of the pickup. This is simple physics, I don't make the rules, but we all have to live by them... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]
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Old 05-02-2005, 05:04 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Re: Can I tow a fifth wheel trailer with a goose neck hitch?

All of the calculations make sense to me, for a trailer that isn't capable of stopping itself. What happens to your numbers when you throw trailer brakes into the equation? If the trailer is slowing at the same rate of deceleration as the truck, do your leverage numbers go down? Seems to me that leverage wouldn't be a factor at all while slowing at that point, but you still have to worry about acceleration and pulling steep grades.



Personally, under 20,000 lbs, I would run one with no doubts. Do I feel uneasy about installing them at work all the time: no. People that are using these adapters aren't pulling the 37 foot triple slide triple axle ALFA fifth wheel. They are pulling a 20-26 foot Keystone single slide double axle fifth wheel.
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Old 05-02-2005, 07:05 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Re: Can I tow a fifth wheel trailer with a goose neck hitch?

like I said babble.You are not using the hitch to twist the fifthwheel. It holds up the frount of the trailer and pull the trailer.If you ever get to see the air ride fifthwheel and adapter I use you would laugh at wat you are saying. because it is a fifthwheel and mounts 30 inch. below the bottom of the trailer.Same distance as the goose.There are so many trailers and ways to hook up them It is hard to keep count. I think some people are to educated for thier on good.
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Old 05-02-2005, 08:20 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Re: Can I tow a fifth wheel trailer with a goose neck hitch?

[ QUOTE ]
If you ever get to see the air ride fifthwheel and adapter I use you would laugh at wat you are saying. because it is a fifthwheel and mounts 30 inch. below the bottom of the trailer.Same distance as the goose.There are so many trailers and ways to hook up them It is hard to keep count. I think some people are to educated for thier on good.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly my point!!! The adapter you are using has lengthened the effective length of your hitch pin, which will transfer a torque moment into the trailer frame. Please do not sit up there and criticize me for posting on something that you obviously have no understanding of... Yes, you may have used it for thousands of miles with no trouble whatsoever. That is not my point. My point is that over those thousands of miles, you have placed a bending moment on the frame of your trailer that is more than what the manufacturer intended... I have a Juice/Attitude in my truck, which causes it to have more horsepower than the manufacturer intended. I have driven it lots of miles with no trouble. However, I do not lie to myself about the fact that I am putting loads on it that are over manufacturer's spec. I posted here only to make sure that anybody that has an extension understands what they are doing, and that putting an extension on the trailer will add to the stress at the pin.

You say your adapter mounts the same distance below the trailer as a gooseneck. Yes, that is correct. That is much lower than a fifth wheel would mount up, which is where the bending moment is coming from.

Think of it this way, if you wanted to bend the pin on your fifth wheel, would you get a 6 inch long pipe, or a 3 foot long pipe? It would be much easier to bend it with the 3' long pipe, because the force from your muscles is multiplied by the length of the lever you are using. Same theory in the gooseneck adapter. Unless the gooseneck adapter actually mounts rigidly (with bolts) to the bed of the truck, and the trailer then mounts to the top of the adapter, you are putting extra torque and bending moment into the connection on your trailer... This is not a fact that can be argued, it is really simple physical properties of a simple machine (lever)
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Old 05-03-2005, 12:19 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Re: Can I tow a fifth wheel trailer with a goose neck hitch?

Hoss I dont know if you would call me a qualifide trailer hauler. But I am her father have over 6 Million miles of safe driving under my belt. have pulled a fifthweel in all shapes and sizes in my life.From flat to over size for nasa. over the many miles of roads in Usa and canada, even the sorry roads of mexico. Been over the big pond on both sides.You are babbling on the manufacture of my fifthwheel did nothing but put an extintion on the same mount that anyone that buyes their trailer gets. My fifthwheel sits lower in the bed of the truck than most fifthwheel. Have never even got crack in the frame. the pin mounts in the fifthwheel locks in. I will never want to bend it.the hitch is made in a rectangle shape to hold the stress. just like a higher mount. but it is longer going down. Do you even know how to change a goose neck trailer over to a fiftwheel.
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Old 05-03-2005, 12:29 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Re: Can I tow a fifth wheel trailer with a goose neck hitch?

[ QUOTE ]
Towing a 5er with a gooseneck is a serious no-no.
Take a look at the gusseting and extra steel built into a gooseneck trailer.
The pin box assembly of the 5th wheel is seriously under designed to the stress and torque that a goose neck ball will put on it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I should have stated that we did add ALOT off gusseting to it. And it's a small fifth wheel, I think that it is 19ft.
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Old 05-03-2005, 12:33 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Re: Can I tow a fifth wheel trailer with a goose neck hitch?

As long as the goose neck hitch is mounted on a bottom plate that will take the sress and not bend then It should tow the fifthwheel great.
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Old 05-03-2005, 11:43 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Re: Can I tow a fifth wheel trailer with a goose neck hitch?

[ QUOTE ]
Do you even know how to change a goose neck trailer over to a fiftwheel.

[/ QUOTE ]

You spend an awful lot of time flinging insults over silly stuff like this. Do you really think that I would be posting on the subject if I didn't know what I was talking about? That is not the way I am wired. We have dealt with each other enough for you to at least give me the benefit of the doubt on that.

I never said it would definately, without a doubt break your trailer. All I said is that the "extension" you keep referencing, and admit to having twice, is putting torque into your pin that it wasn't designed to handle. It may not be enough to break it, crack it, hurt it, mangle it, or even do anything to it other than allow it to be hauled for tens of thousands of miles uneventfully. However, My intent was to make sure that everybody that does this understands that this is the case, that they DO risk damage to their trailer, and that MOST trailer manufacturers will VOID your warranty if they find out you are using an extension. There is a reason for this. The reason is, they did not design the trailer to handle the stresses that an extension would place on it. I am done arguing with you about it, you believe what you want, and I am happy that you have had such great success in towing your trailer. My intention was never to impeach anybody's decision to use an extension, I would probably do it myself if I owned a 5th wheel, since I already have a gooseneck on my truck. However, I did not want anybody to do this without understanding that they are taking the risk of damaging their trailer.
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Old 05-03-2005, 12:41 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Re: Can I tow a fifth wheel trailer with a goose neck hitch?

Guys, ya'll need to look at this:

http://www.codyhitch.com/cody%20coupler.htm

If you go down toward the bottom of the page, it talks about the leverage these things put on the pin box. Maybe this will help everyone understand what the discussion is about in these posts.
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