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Old 03-13-2005, 04:34 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Do I need a CDL or Class A for this?

I am thinking about ordering an F-450 to pull my fifth wheel camper. The camper I have mow weighs 12k lbs. I am thinking about having a receiver hitch mounted to the rear of the camper so that I can flat tow a jeep that weighs less than 4,000 lbs. In the future I will be getting a toy hauler (18k GVW) that I can park the jeep inside of instead of towing behind the camper. The combination I have now would weigh about 24k total, but I think it would be considered a tandem trailer. The new camper total would be about 26k lbs. I think in any case I have I do not need a CDL because it is all considered to be an RV. In either of these cases would I be required to have a CDL or Class A? What is the difference in the two?
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Old 03-13-2005, 05:59 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Do I need a CDL or Class A for this?

the state of ca requires a class a license with doubles/triples endorsement.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/cdl_htm/sec1_a.htm
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Old 03-15-2005, 11:15 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Do I need a CDL or Class A for this?

Depending on the state, you can get a class A without the CDL rating. Also, depending on the state, you might be exempt from the Class A since it is an RV.

However, I think your F450 will probably weigh over 8,000 pounds, possibly over 9,000. My 550 weighs 10,400. An old 1990 450 i used to drive with a 460 gasser weighed 8,800.

If your truck is over 8,000 and that new trailer was 18,000 or heavier, then you would be in CDL territory for sure.
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Old 03-16-2005, 12:22 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Do I need a CDL or Class A for this?

Do you need a CDL? NO!!! what does CDL stand for? COMMERCIAL Driver's License ... you're not operating vehicle for commercial purposes.

i'm not from TX, but just googling around, i think you will need a Class A license, check with DMV to make sure ...but you do not need CDL ... and don't let anybody tell you that you do!!!

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Old 03-16-2005, 01:23 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Do I need a CDL or Class A for this?

COMMERCIAL may be in the name for this license but the vehicle does not need to be engaged in a commercial enterprise to require a CDL. According to Michigan law (your state may be different) Any resident needs a CDL in order to:

A) operate a vehicle with a GVWR of 26001 pounds or more;
B) tow a trailer or other vehicle with a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more with a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more; or
C) operate any vehicle to transport 16 or more people (including driver) or carry hazardous materials in amounts requiring placards.

So if you have an F350 DRW with a GVWR of 11500# and are pulling a trailer for personal use with a GVWR of 14501# or more, a CDL is required IN MICHIGAN regardless of the actual weight of the rig.

I am taking delivery of a new 32' box horse trailer in a couple of weeks. The trailer is built very stout with heavy axles, air ride suspension, disc brakes and 17.5" wheels. The GVWR on the trailer will be in excess of 20K #. Even though the trailer weighs only about 8500 #, I would need a CDL to pull this trailer with my dually even if it was empty!

On edit: Am I going to get a CDL? No I am going to pretend I am pulling a flimsy horse trailer and go down the road like I am minding my own business and plead ignorance if pulled over. However if they wanted to make the charge stick, they could. This post will disappear in 30 seconds.
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:24 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Do I need a CDL or Class A for this?

Well for those of you that dont understand, there are classes of drivers licences class A.B.C.depemding on the vehical and trailers you will be pulling.there is also indorsements Haz. motor cycle,air brake.and on and on. If you have a camper on the truck and remove it.Then pull a trailer you are no longer a R.V.It is very easy to get a upgraded class lisence. Go to the local DMV.
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:46 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Do I need a CDL or Class A for this?

[ QUOTE ]
COMMERCIAL may be in the name for this license but the vehicle does not need to be engaged in a commercial enterprise to require a CDL. According to Michigan law (your state may be different)

[/ QUOTE ]
When I lived in Michigan I got a CDL, so I am/was up on Michigan requriements. Now that I'm in Arizona things are a bit different.

I found this poking around at Michigan Secretary of State

Law Enforcement Agency Letter

September 9, 2002


To: All Law Enforcement Agencies


On October 1, 2002, new legislation (Public Act 534 of 2002) that impacts the Michigan Commercial Driver License (CDL) and commercial motor vehicle (CMV) requirements takes effect. Law enforcement agencies are advised of the following CDL/CMV-related changes:

New definitions for the CDL Group A and Group B designations.
Establishment of new railroad crossing violations and driver penalties while operating a CMV.
Addition of a new employer penalty for railroad crossing offenses.
Standardization of the railroad grade crossing stopping requirements.

New CDL Vehicle Group Definitions:


A. The Group A CDL is required for any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 pounds or more when towing a trailer or other vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 10,001 pounds or more.

The new Group A definition eliminates the CDL Group A requirement for small combination vehicles under 26,001 pounds GCWR pulling a vehicle over 10,000 pounds GVWR. A typical example would be a pickup truck pulling a trailer rated over 10,000 pounds. Persons with a Group A may operate Group B or C vehicles.

[Bold is by me]

B. The Group B CDL is required for a vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,001 pounds or more.

The new CDL Group B definition eliminates the Group B requirement for small combination vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of more than 26,000 pounds when the power unit is less than 26,001 pounds GVWR and the vehicle being towed is under 10,001 pounds GVWR. A common example is a small stake or dump truck pulling an equipment trailer. The new Group B definition still allows for towing trailers less than 10,001 pounds GVWR. Persons with a Group B may operate Group C vehicles.


C. The CDL requirements for the Group C designator do not change. The CDL Group C is necessary for a single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) less than 26,001 pounds or a vehicle having a GVWR under 26,001 pounds towing a trailer or other vehicle and carrying hazardous materials on which a placard is required or designed to transport 16 or more passengers including the driver.

Arizona has the same language, but I can't locate that page right now.
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:47 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Do I need a CDL or Class A for this?

Just an example of how states vary. In Florida, if your GVWR is 8K or more but less than 26001K, or more than 80" wide, no placardable or HAZMAT materials, no CDL is reqrd, however you do need a class "D" license. Written test is same as CDL but no driving test rqrd.
You can see by this that virtually anyone driving a 3/4 ton or larger must have a class "D", if registered in FL.
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Old 03-16-2005, 02:31 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Do I need a CDL or Class A for this?

[ QUOTE ]
I found this poking around at Michigan Secretary of State

[/ QUOTE ]Casey_1 You da man! THANK YOU! You just saved me a heap of work. The regulations that I printed out are dated October 2004 are what I stated above. I will print that letter out and carry it with me. I guess as long as I do not have a GCVW exceeding 26001# I am good to go.
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Old 03-16-2005, 10:58 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Do I need a CDL or Class A for this?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
COMMERCIAL may be in the name for this license but the vehicle does not need to be engaged in a commercial enterprise to require a CDL. According to Michigan law (your state may be different)

[/ QUOTE ]
When I lived in Michigan I got a CDL, so I am/was up on Michigan requriements. Now that I'm in Arizona things are a bit different.

I found this poking around at Michigan Secretary of State

Law Enforcement Agency Letter

September 9, 2002


To: All Law Enforcement Agencies


On October 1, 2002, new legislation (Public Act 534 of 2002) that impacts the Michigan Commercial Driver License (CDL) and commercial motor vehicle (CMV) requirements takes effect. Law enforcement agencies are advised of the following CDL/CMV-related changes:

New definitions for the CDL Group A and Group B designations.
Establishment of new railroad crossing violations and driver penalties while operating a CMV.
Addition of a new employer penalty for railroad crossing offenses.
Standardization of the railroad grade crossing stopping requirements.

New CDL Vehicle Group Definitions:


A. The Group A CDL is required for any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 pounds or more when towing a trailer or other vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 10,001 pounds or more.

The new Group A definition eliminates the CDL Group A requirement for small combination vehicles under 26,001 pounds GCWR pulling a vehicle over 10,000 pounds GVWR. A typical example would be a pickup truck pulling a trailer rated over 10,000 pounds. Persons with a Group A may operate Group B or C vehicles.

[Bold is by me]

B. The Group B CDL is required for a vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,001 pounds or more.

The new CDL Group B definition eliminates the Group B requirement for small combination vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of more than 26,000 pounds when the power unit is less than 26,001 pounds GVWR and the vehicle being towed is under 10,001 pounds GVWR. A common example is a small stake or dump truck pulling an equipment trailer. The new Group B definition still allows for towing trailers less than 10,001 pounds GVWR. Persons with a Group B may operate Group C vehicles.


C. The CDL requirements for the Group C designator do not change. The CDL Group C is necessary for a single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) less than 26,001 pounds or a vehicle having a GVWR under 26,001 pounds towing a trailer or other vehicle and carrying hazardous materials on which a placard is required or designed to transport 16 or more passengers including the driver.

Arizona has the same language, but I can't locate that page right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

All states MUST recognize other states' laws. If your home state has different regulations and you're travelling through their state and you get stopped at a checkpoint, they can't ticket you unless you're breaking the posted weight limit for the road or if you're over weight on your liscence.

We have a rather unique situation with our stuff. We have a '87 Chevy C-70 dump truck with a 16' bed that weighs 13,600lbs. empty. We pull a 26' tagalong dovetail equipment trailer to haul our Bobcat and Farmall 140 on. The trailer is rated at 6 tons. The truck has a GVWR of 33,000lbs (10 tons of payload). It is liscensed for 45,000lbs. with the trailer. However it has farm truck tags on it, and therefore it does not require CDL to drive it, according to NC law. I could jump in it fully loaded right now and be legal to drive it because of the farm truck tags. The stipulation was that if we put commercial tags on it, a CDL would be required, and with the farm tags, we can't take it over 150 miles from the address of the registered owner (my father) which would be at home.
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Old 03-16-2005, 11:36 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Do I need a CDL or Class A for this?

i'm gonna say this one more time ... YOU DO NOT NEED A CDL!!!

h-n-h2

This ---&gt; Michigan Dept. of State Law Enforcement Agency Letter that everybody keeps linking to does nothing but explain the different classes of CDL's, IF you were to need them!!!

If you read this ---&gt; Michigan Dept. of State Who needs a CDL? bottom of the page, you will see that as long as you are transporting personal property and family members, for non-business purposes, YOU DO NOT NEED A CDL!!!



now who's da man??? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

FWIW...most states follow the same CDL guidelines, but if they differ and you get stopped, they still have to honor your home state guidelines.


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Old 03-17-2005, 04:47 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Do I need a CDL or Class A for this?

What AllstarPSD said.... CDL is ONLY for commercial operators over 26K. It does not apply to non-commercial operations.

One big catch here are signs on the side of the tow vehicle or trailer. If you have a sign (ABC Horse Stables Inc, etc), you're going to be deemed commercial. If your vehicle is registered to a commercial entity, and your weight rating is over 26K, you'll need a CDL. Doesn't matter if you are currently using it for a non-commercial purpose.

That caught an acquaintence of mine who hauled a few friends motorcycles out to the Sturgis rally two years ago. He was using an F350 DRW and a triple-axle enclosed trailer, weight over 26K total. He had his company logo painted on the side of the trailer. When he blew by a weigh station in Iowa, they chased him down and took him back for a weigh. Cost him over $700 for by-passing the scale and not having a CDL. The creeper-cop that chased him down said they couldn't have done a thing if he hadn't had that sign on the side of his trailer. Then they let him drive off in the rig, still without a CDL. Go figure.
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