E-450 box towing 10,000 lbs, seeing 250F ;-(

[MJons]

Hi, I'm pretty concerned about having my rig stranded half way across the country. Hopefully some of you may have some experience to share and advice for a solution.

I bought a 07 E-450 Econoline box truck, it's the 6.0l motor w/ transmission that does _not_ have a 'tow' button on the shift lever, it has the OD-off button on the end of the shift lever. It gets about 8.5mpg depending on terrain. (does the Econoline diesel have a intercooler?)

The truck is used as our service/tow vehicle for a rally (race) team and tows #10,500lbs of two cars on a two car open trailer. The truck itself has a lot of weight in the back with tools, tires, jacks, etc... and weighs 13,000lbs on rear axle and 4,000 on front axle. Truck has 30,000 miles on it now and put most of those on towing a 26' enclosed trailer with one car in it and the stock wheel/tire size...on truck.

Changes made to the truck:
-airbags- to help stabilize everything and keep the rear from squatting too much.
-trans cooler as stated below
-19.5" wheels and 225/70/19.5 tires to provide stability and deal with the prolonged highway speed driving with that much weight.

The big cooler, trans temp guage AND 19.5" wheels were added at same time.

So, here's the part I'm concerned about!... We put a trans temp guage on it taking a signal from the small port on the side of the trans. (right under/beside the shift lever as it goes into the side).
At the same time of installing the guage we installed a Jegs trans cooler made for 30,000lbs... it's a pretty big aluminum one that we put in place of the stock unit. (the stock unit looks like it may have a more efficient design for cooling but it was less than 1/3 the size of the new one we put in.)
It was early to mid April when we took the rig to Washington state from Ohio and saw what the guage was doing. On flat towing at decent speed (and cool temperatures) it would hang out at 170-190F. The trouble would start when we had to make a long climb where we saw 250F a few times. Usually when we crested a hill at that temp we'd stop and let it cool for 15 min or whatever it took before continuing...
On the way up the hill I'd try to hold steady speed and choose a gear so it wouldn't waste energy upshifting and downshifting. We'd do about 35mph or so for most of the hill then get down to 25-30 by the top.

I'm not sure what to do next but it's clearly something to deal with, I can't afford for the rig to be stuck half way across the country when I need it!

Here are my questions/thoughts.
Have I totally made the situation worse by adding 19.5 wheels? What should I do to help recitify that?...Buy the adapter that helps correct the speed such that the transmission understands what speed we're going?
OR change the rear end gearing to make it shorter? (I'd like to not do this as it'll hurt mileage more.
-Should I add another cooler under the truck with a fan on it that we'd switch on when temps are higher than we'd like?
-I'm pretty sure a flash for towing would help us out for power and for telling the tranmission to lock the converter more often... suggestions for which one works well?

I think that's sufficient info to see my perdicament... I think we're on the edge of needing a larger chassis truck but I'm invested in this solution for now.
Any help or advice is much appreciated.

Thanks, Matthew

[SmokeyWren]

Originally Posted by MJons

I bought a 07 E-450 Econoline box truck, it's the 6.0l motor w/ transmission that does _not_ have a 'tow' button on the shift lever, it has the OD-off button on the end of the shift lever.

Right. For some strange reason, Ford chose to bastardize the TorqShift tranny on the 2007 E-450 hooked to a diesel engine. So you have to drive it the same way us folks with the old 4R100 tranny do: Downshift to direct drive when climbing grades that would cause a downshift anyway. And go down the mountain in the same gear required to climb the mountain.

(does the Econoline diesel have a intercooler?)

For 2007 E-450, yes. Earlier E-Vans did not have an intercooler (charge air cooler), but the specs show that yours does.

The truck is used as our service/tow vehicle for a rally (race) team and tows #10,500lbs of two cars on a two car open trailer. The truck itself has a lot of weight in the back with tools, tires, jacks, etc... and weighs 13,000lbs on rear axle and 4,000 on front axle.

You're overloaded.

Your GCWR is 20,000 pounds but you're grossing around 23,500. Your GVWR is 14,050 but your GVW is 17,000. Your Dana 10.75 rear axle is rated for a max weight of 9,450 pounds, but you're hauling 13,000 on it. Your receiver is rated for 10,000 pounds with a weight-distributing hitch, but you have more than that tied on to the receiver.

Have I totally made the situation worse by adding 19.5 wheels? What should I do to help recitify that?...Buy the adapter that helps correct the speed such that the transmission understands what speed we're going?
OR change the rear end gearing to make it shorter?

All that matters about tire/wheel size (other than weight capacity) is tire revs/mile. Stock 16" tires on your van were LT225/75R16E with 708 revs/mile. The 19.5" jobbies on F-450s were LT225/70R19.5 with 653 revs/mile.

708 minus 653 = 55, divided by 708 = 7.8 percent. So without a calibrated speedo, your odometer, tripmeter, and speedo are 7.8 percent slow. So at 70 MPH per the speedo, you're really cruising along at over 75 MPH. And your fuel mileage calculations are off by 7.8 percent, so instead of about 8.5 MPG you're really getting about 9.1.

So I'd have the speedo calibrated for the current-size tires. Any Ford truck dealer should be able to do it, and they'll probably charge you one hour labor rate.

Your taller tires also change your effective rear axle ratio. If you have a 4.10, with the taller tires it acts like a 3.78. That should be fine for your load, but you'll probably have to struggle to climb steep mountain passes. A 4.56 ring gear and pinion would get you back to the feel of power and torque from the stock tires and 4.10 ratio. But so would a mild hot-rodding with a chip or tune to add 60-or-so horses.

-I'm pretty sure a flash for towing would help us out for power and for telling the tranmission to lock the converter more often... suggestions for which one works well?

I'm a big fan of DP-Tuner. Talk to Jody and be sure he understands you have an '07 E-450 without the tow-haul mode, and not an F-450. Jody will know what will work best for your poor ole overloaded 6.0L E-Van. Dp Tuner

I think we're on the edge of needing a larger chassis truck but I'm invested in this solution for now.

"On the edge" is an understatement. You fell off the clift already. You need something with 26,000 or more GCWR and about 16,000 GVWR. IOW, you need an F-450 chassis cab truck. Get the right cab-to-axle length and you could use your old box on the new truck if you needed to get by with the "economical" solution.

[artherd]

Install a T/C lockup override switch, (below 40mph your TC is probally unlocking)

And install a thermostatic-controlled fan-cooled second trans-cooler.

You're in F-450/550 territory with your weights btw.

[u2slow]

What ratio is in there?

I'm wondering if they have gone with taller gears on the 5R100 rigs - 4.63 and 4.88 used to be the diesel ratios in the 450 series.

[SmokeyWren]

Originally Posted by u2slow

What ratio is in there?

Ford dropped the 6.0L as an option in the E-450 Cut-away for the last few months of the '07 model year, so I don't have an order guide with available axle ratios for '07. But they brought it back for the '08 model year, and the only rear axle ratio available with the 6.0L engine and TorqShift tranny is 4.10.

Yes, the '08 E-450 still has the 6.0L, not the 6.8L.

[MJons]

Thanks guys,

I was pretty sure we were past the limits. I know we are in F-450/550 territory, we just couldn't afford that solution.

To help deal with the weight we added the bits we did, ..the 19.5s with commercial tires and air bags (adjustable inside) and had a really nice and strong custom hitch built.

My thoughts (with having virtually no experience in this world of interchangable Ford parts) were to eventually do a solid axle conversion in the front with the bigger brakes. Right now I have to chase the box around a bit with steering and it seems like the HD front end or solid axle front end would help with that.

For the short term I can get the speedo sorted out, change the fluid to synthetic, And get some other cooler with a fan on there.

Does this truck have the ability to lock the Converter in all gears or just some? It appears to lock it in 4th and 5th?

For the next couple trips we'll only have a single car trailer and one car so that should help some.

I'm interested in any more input. Can I buy the cooler with thermostat controled fan solution off shelf or need to cobble together the parts?

[MJons]

Another question..

when the truck downshifts at around 40mph while climbing up a hill it sometimes squeals/houls/hisses really loudly, sounds like turbo noise, I lift off the throttle a bit and it goes away. That's usually around 3400rpm?.. is it trying to overspeed the turbo or more likely a boost leak?

The last trip my guy driving said that noise was getting worse and happening a lot more.

Any ideas?

Thanks, MJ

[MJons]

Finally, could you guys also name a few aftermarket companies that specialize in
Ford diesel towing?
Thanks, MJ

[Mark Kovalsky]

Originally Posted by MJons

For the short term I can get the speedo sorted out, change the fluid to synthetic,

ONLY use MERCON SP fluid. It's already a synthetic.

Originally Posted by MJons

Does this truck have the ability to lock the Converter in all gears or just some? It appears to lock it in 4th and 5th?

The software will only lock the converter in 4th and 5th. The trans has the capability to lock in all forward gears, but it isn't used by the stock program.

[u2slow]

Originally Posted by MJons

I was pretty sure we were past the limits. I know we are in F-450/550 territory, we just couldn't afford that solution.

I don't look at dealer pricing much... were the 2wd F450/550 or the E550 that much more?

To help deal with the weight we added the bits we did, ..the 19.5s with commercial tires and air bags (adjustable inside) and had a really nice and strong custom hitch built.

I did the same with 19.5s. Worth every penny IMO.

My thoughts (with having virtually no experience in this world of interchangable Ford parts) were to eventually do a solid axle conversion in the front with the bigger brakes. Right now I have to chase the box around a bit with steering and it seems like the HD front end or solid axle front end would help with that.

I looked at upgrading my brakes, and found that E450 was the same. I now have the Raybestos drilled and slotted rotors - but haven't installed them yet. A hydraulic brake booster (hydroboost - as opposed to vacuum) might be in the future also.

As for axle swap - the 05+ F-SuperDuty suspension looks attractive. I want to measure one to see if the coils are the same spacing.

For the short term I can get the speedo sorted out, change the fluid to synthetic, And get some other cooler with a fan on there.

Does this truck have the ability to lock the Converter in all gears or just some? It appears to lock it in 4th and 5th?

For the next couple trips we'll only have a single car trailer and one car so that should help some.

I'm interested in any more input. Can I buy the cooler with thermostat controled fan solution off shelf or need to cobble together the parts?

The reason I got into the axle ratio is that a favourable change there will make the powertrain's job easier; i.e. reduce the amount of heat created in the first place.

My brother has the Edge Juice Attitude A2 thing on his '06 F350. It has overtemp alarms for EGT and the trans. Trans lockup in most (or all) gears to allow the exhaust brake to work. He also went to 36" rig tires/wheels, and that tuner seems to have compensated powerwise (and then some) for the loss of effective axle ratio. He hauls a 16-17k# bumper pull equipment trailer.

[spg]

Why don't you run the stock cooler and the aftermarket cooler in series?

[Kaliburz]

You should have kept the original cooler AND added the bigger one. If you have the room, add another tranny cooler or put the original back in.

They have 'kits' that allow the fan to turn on automatically. Set it for 200-210F and it should keep your temps down.

The only experience I have w/ coolers and gauges is from the bus at work. The one I drove did not have a cooler other then the one built into the radiator. The sender was mounted so it took the temp as it exited the tranny going to the cooler. ON stop and go running on a hot summer/fall day, it would hit 250F. Tranny eventually failed (old). It was refit w/ an external cooler and was maintaining 210F on stop and go, but would cool down to 180 or so when it started moving.


I'm concerned about your tranny hitting 250F too often. And you stated it was a cool day..... what happens when it's 90+F outside and you're pulling a hill.

[MJons]

It's going to the dealer to get the trans flushed (they use the MERCRON SP right?) and speedo recalibrated. hopefully they'll also have some idea of the super loug squeeling we hear sometimes from the turbo area.
(I couldn't find the intercooler doing a quick peak around)

I should have kept the stock one in place and added the new cooler. The new one was so much bigger I was hoping it would have done the trick.
Is this what I need to be aiming at now?
Perma-Cool 12311 - Perma-Cool Maxi-Cool Oil/Trans Coolers - JEGS

When you say 'fan' are you talking a new fan mounted on a trans cooler or the stock motor fan I hear come on? The stock one seems to pay no attention to what the transmission is doing.

u2slow mentions tuning to compensate for the less effective ratios after adding bigger wheels. I was also thinking that if the truck had a bit more power it could pull top gear/ratio up more hills without having to unlock the converter and shift.

Thanks, MJ

[Mark Kovalsky]

Originally Posted by MJons

Is this what I need to be aiming at now?
Perma-Cool 12311 - Perma-Cool Maxi-Cool Oil/Trans Coolers - JEGS

That cooler will cause a problem. It has 3/8" lines, your trans has 1/2" lines. It is going to be too restrictive. That will limit the cooling, and if it is restrictive enough it will limit the lube flow to the rear of the trans, destroying it.

You may have a hard time finding a cooler with 1/2" lines, but I predict big, expensive problems if you use a cooler with 3/8" lines. That might even be your current problem.

[MJons]

That could be part of current problem! I remember a slight difference in tube size (not so much that I worried about it).. but maybe I should have paid more attention.

Anyone else think that 3/8 line likely to cause extra flow/heating trouble?

OR know a source to get 1/2 bore cooler?

Thanks, MJ