Tire change, now handling problems

[knoweigh]

not sure if I have something else going on or not but here's been my experience w/ truck in sig over past cpl years:

Had 8 ply tires for awhile and soon found that the weight I haul was way too much for them w/ a rating of around 2500lbs each. So made a switch to 10 ply offbrand.
UP till this week I've been running a cheap electra ironman AT tire. 10 ply w/ massive 3400 rating per tire. I absolutely LOVED them! Great in most all types of terrain and most of all seemed EXTREMELY stable...as in no sidewall roll. Only wishing I would've bought another set.
Here's the deal and maybe those of you w/ more experience w/ tires and their reactions/handling can shed light on this for me.
After hitting a massive pot hole, I suffered a impact break in one of my much loved cheapo ironmans.
I was in a hurry to get back on the road so instead of doing the logical thing and tracking down 1 replacement tire (since I only had maybe 30k on them and looked to have another 30k left in them easily) I visited local tire dealer and coughed up $800 for a brand new set of firestone transforce AT. same size 265/75/r16 E rated @ 3400lb
Now. Here's my dilema:
as soon as these were slapped on, my truck (running empty) feels horribly unstable (compared to my cheapo ironmans). For instance: running down highway (empty) at 65mph and give the wheel a slight tug as if to swerve around a dead animal in the road, the rear end of truck feels like it's delayed and sway's to the point I seriously feel almost unsafe w/ it as it is. Have yet to put the 13k load behind yet and see how does like that, but gosh, w/ it acting like this empty I'm nearly terrified as to how it will handle w/ my load. Again, my cheapo ironmans which you can pick up for $400 / set of 4 all day long, handled WAY better. IMHO.
Could it have something to do with my used tires being wore in and running a flatter footprint, thus giving more stability as opposed to a "new" tire here? I don't recall the ironman's acting like this even when new.... is my transforce a true 10 ply?. It "states" the same weight rating of 3400lbs.
I am running 80lbs as shown and that's what I've always ran on my ironmans.
any thoughts?...

[Smiley1]

Originally Posted by knoweigh

not sure if I have something else going on or not but here's been my experience w/ truck in sig over past cpl years:

Had 8 ply tires for awhile and soon found that the weight I haul was way too much for them w/ a rating of around 2500lbs each. So made a switch to 10 ply offbrand.
UP till this week I've been running a cheap electra ironman AT tire. 10 ply w/ massive 3400 rating per tire. I absolutely LOVED them! Great in most all types of terrain and most of all seemed EXTREMELY stable...as in no sidewall roll. Only wishing I would've bought another set.
Here's the deal and maybe those of you w/ more experience w/ tires and their reactions/handling can shed light on this for me.
After hitting a massive pot hole, I suffered a impact break in one of my much loved cheapo ironmans.
I was in a hurry to get back on the road so instead of doing the logical thing and tracking down 1 replacement tire (since I only had maybe 30k on them and looked to have another 30k left in them easily) I visited local tire dealer and coughed up $800 for a brand new set of firestone transforce AT. same size 265/75/r16 E rated @ 3400lb
Now. Here's my dilema:
as soon as these were slapped on, my truck (running empty) feels horribly unstable (compared to my cheapo ironmans). For instance: running down highway (empty) at 65mph and give the wheel a slight tug as if to swerve around a dead animal in the road, the rear end of truck feels like it's delayed and sway's to the point I seriously feel almost unsafe w/ it as it is. Have yet to put the 13k load behind yet and see how does like that, but gosh, w/ it acting like this empty I'm nearly terrified as to how it will handle w/ my load. Again, my cheapo ironmans which you can pick up for $400 / set of 4 all day long, handled WAY better. IMHO.
Could it have something to do with my used tires being wore in and running a flatter footprint, thus giving more stability as opposed to a "new" tire here? I don't recall the ironman's acting like this even when new.... is my transforce a true 10 ply?. It "states" the same weight rating of 3400lbs.
I am running 80lbs as shown and that's what I've always ran on my ironmans.
any thoughts?...

New tires will have an oily residue for the first hundred miles or so. I am not convinced that this is what you are experiencing. The Transforce line is a very good line and you dont hear too many complaints about them. I have not run them but I do run the Firestone Destination AT's with no issues. If you are not happy with them you might want to take them back. I have done this before with a set of tires that didnt handle as well as I liked. The 80 PSI may be giving you a smaller contact patch on the road. Try running with a little less air and see if that helps. That will flatten the contact patch a bit when you are unloaded. If you keep it aired up to max in the back you will eventually wear the center. This will give you more of a flat spot that you may have been used to.

[PowerstrokeConverters]

x2 on the tire pressure, I have 22.5's and run less than 80 empty.

[work&play]

The firestone transforce AT are supposed to be a good tire, maybe you got a bad set ?
I just put on a set of Nitto durra graplers and LOVE them.
My truck is a working truck with a utility body and a daily weight of 11,000 lbs.

[Otis B. Driftwood]

It could be another worn out part showing itself as a result of hitting the pothole or you could have done more damage than just the tire. If you hit it hard enough to destroy a tire maybe something else got damaged. I recall hitting a pothole in my F150 and the rusted out radius arm bracket finally broke and resulted in the steering wheel being off about 45*. I also have Transforce AT's on my 250 and have no issue's with them, but my truck wanders so much that I could not attribute it to any one part. Finally I have Destination AT's on my Dodge and they also seem like a good tire, though that truck wanders too, but it is a Dodge after all.

[knoweigh]

yes, I have no doubt that some of my bushings etc are a bit worn;
What concerned me is the fact that driving my truck like that (with the vibration) for maybe 6000 miles for 2 months, it "handled" just fine.
Minute I left tire shop w/ new tires, is when the "handling" problem occured. (vibration is obviously now gone)
Also, more research revealed that the firestone transforce AT shows as a 7 ply tire on the printing on it, yet it is "rated" from firestone w/ a "10 ply rating"
Figure that one out! LOL
My Electra Ironman LT66 were actually stamped with number of ply adding up to 10 ply on the tire, thus IMHO was a "true" 10 ply tire. Furthermore, the Ironman's had a speed rating of "S" while maintaining the 3400lb rating. (1 notch higher on speed than these transforce) Anyhow, that's water under the bridge as those tires are no longer available over here unless you want to special order them in w/ 6 week leadtime. Sure is a shame because those tires (for the money) were flat AWESOME! Basically had same look as a BFG all terrain but cost about half. Prices ranged in $450-$600 for a set. I hope they do make another appearance here.
Maybe if enough start to beg for them, they'll bring them in. For those of us looking for a relatively meaty looking tire with a heavy rating and excellent handling, they definitely a WAY better tire for the money than anything else out there........PANTS DOWN!

Anyhow, back to the transforce AT

I may have just not given the tires a chance. Here's what I've found over past few days w/ a little 400 mile round trip on the highway.

I lowered the rear tires from 80psi down to 70psi.
An IMEDIATE tightening in handling was noticed (still not quite as good as it was w/ my other tires, but nevertheless an improvement).
My assumption is that it took the somewhat rounded footprint of the new tire and made it a bit flatter by lowering pressure, resulting in more "stability" felt in the cab.

After running 400 miles pulling a 7000lb trailer, I'm comfotable enough with it that I"ll keep them (as I really don't have another option from local tire dealer since there's nothing much more that matches what I'm looking for)

So, can anyone shed some light on the whole "10 ply rating" all the while only showing 7 ply printed on the tire?

[nashvillebill]

The old "ply rating" has many folks overly concerned or confused. Years ago, tires were bias (the way the internal materials were oriented), and plies were made out of weaker material like cotton. The tire was made stronger by piling on more plies, giving rise to the 4 ply, 6 ply, 8 ply, 10 ply nomenclature.

Then radials came along, which was a major change in the way the tire's materials are oriented internally, and the belt material itself changed to much stronger stuff like polyester, aramid (Kevlar), etc. The tires no longer needed 8 or 10 plies. There might be only 2 or 3 fabric plies plus 2 steel belts now, but the tires are far far stronger (and last 3 or 4 times longer) than their old bias predecessors. Plus they handle better and balance far smoother.

edit: Looking at the Firestone site at the Transforce ad, it says there's nylon cap ply. So I'm guessing there's 3 fabric plies, 2 steel belts, plus 2 cap plies to yield a total of 7 plies....bottom line, it's the "Load Range E" designation that determines the weight rating for a given size tire.

[Bigshow]

I think you have to narrow things down somewhat. Firstly, do a wheel alignment and have the shop verify there is no damage as a result of the impact. Then, maybe rotate your old tires onto the steering and see what happens? Like one other comment made above, the newer thread with sharper edges may be just grabbing the road better and transmitting it and its showing up through some worn parts? Just my input!

[Flywheel]

Good post Nashville -

Also, I think you will always feel this difference going from old tires to new tires to some extent. not only do you have a lot more tread now - but they will be a little "slimy" as mentioned earlier.

The deeper new tread will have a feeling of oversteer (loose, mushy) compared to old tires with less tread. It does not take much to make a big difference in feel.

[Bigshow]

Originally Posted by Flywheel

The deeper new tread will have a feeling of oversteer (loose, mushy) compared to old tires with less tread. It does not take much to make a big difference in feel.

I agree - especially if there is some wear in the steering/front end. I dont mean worn out components, just maybe a bit looser than new due to normal wear.

[knoweigh]

I agree w/ above regarding the new tread.
As stated, after a few hundred miles, it appears these tires are handling MUCH better, and improving with every 100 miles.
I have about 1500 miles on them now and I'm feeling quite comfortable with them.
I still am a little disappointed at the sidewall strength or lack thereof;....
even at 80psi, I see a slight bag up front (thanks to our 7.3 monster) and at 80psi out back and roughly 3000lbs of tongue wt on 5th wheel, I see way more bagging than I"m used to. Hopefully that amount of bagging is normal, or acceptable. Sorta scares me, but .....the tires have 3400lbs stamped right on the sidewall so I guess if it fails or causes me some sort of major grief I'll have to take that up w/ firestone.

[Flywheel]

I think you'll be fine.

My 285s LRE are rated for 3700lbs and look like that with no load to the point that I sometimes feel like I need to check the pressure. That is the way these tires look.

The fact is - that is a very good tire and I have not heard anything bad about it. I am pretty particular about tires, and while I am not a Firestone guy, that tire ins not far down on my list.

[OhioGTX]

I am new to this forum and came across it as I was looking for others that may have the same issue with the Transforce AT's that I am experiencing. Until I read Knoweigh's Post I thought that maybe it was just me. To place this in context I will give you some background. My DSL is a 97 Dodge 3500 4x4. I have owed this truck since new and have had great luck with the truck, at least until I made the tire change. The Truck came originally with Goodyear AT's, not a great tire, not a bad tire but at 40k they needed replaced, I replaced them with another set of Goodyears, this time the ATS model. They lasted another 45k but by then they were slicks. So now I have a 97 Dodge 4x4 with 85k miles and no problems, at least nothing to speak of. I decided to try the Firestone AT tires, partly on reviews I read and mostly on the cost savings I was seeing over the Goodyears. So I purchased a new set of LT 215/85/R16 Transforce AT's.

Now the problems start. Just like Knoweighs experience I noticed a weird driving sensation as soon as I left the tire dealer. The truck started to wander and it felt like the rear of the truck was hitting patches of ice. I figured will it must be me or maybe the tires need a few miles on them.

I mostly use my truck to tow a 28' box trailer with a 68 GTX drag car inside. The loaded trailer probably tips the scale around 10k give or take a 1k lbs. My next drive was with the trailer attached, now the sway and instability became worse. It was like the truck had a mind of its own. given this I did the usual and looked for something broken or badly in need of adjustment. My first check was tire pressure. The fronts were at 80lbs and rears at 60lbs, exactly as the tire placard suggests. I thought well maybe more rear tire pressure would help, so I bumped them to 70lbs. It was a slight help but nothing noticable. Needless to say the tow was a white knuckle ride.

I made it home in once piece and figured well the front end must be shot and these new tires just pointed out the problem to me...Well new ball joints, tie rods, track bar, rebuilt steering box and added a BD Steering stabilizer box later...still no better. Well yes it does steer a heck of lot better but the rear sway with a loaded trailer is terrible. I have spoken to the Firestone dealer and they have been little help, mostly they note how much everyone likes these tires.

At this time I have 4000 mile of white knuckle driving under my belt and figure that unless I can isolate a cause that can be corrected these tires gotta go before I wreck my rig or worse cause someone else to incur an accident as they are watching how bad this thing sways at highway speeds.

I have tried most everything, varied tire pressures, replaced worn steering, aligned twice etc....If anyone has some ideas I am all ears,,.thanks for listening.

also, interesting forum!

[Joe Mc]

It just looks like a tire dealer could beg, borrow or steal a different tire type that you could try on your truck.

4,000 miles of white knuckle driving is not worth the price of another set of tires.
What is going to happen when there are icy patches?

Being broke and under-employed, I would be making a big sign for the sides of that trailer and offer free thrill rides for anyone thinking about buying Firestone tires! If the dealer was not being helpful, because I would hate to be out the price of worthless tires.

[Larry S.]

Several years ago I experienced a similar thing with a set of Sears all terrain tires. When I finally complained to Sears about it they willingly relaced them with a different tire and all was back to normal handling. It was all due to tread squirm in the aggressive AT tires.