Towing/Equipment Advice for inexperienced driver?

[jbecwar]

This is kind of a long post, the questions are at the bottom but I thought some background information would be helpful.

My wife and I live in Fairbanks Alaska. Housing/Utilities is very expensive here. I just graduated from college, and we can't afford housing here.

One day we were looking on craigslist and saw a 5th wheel for sale. On a fluke we went and looked at. We loved it, it was nicer then our rental and much cheaper. The previous owner of the 5th wheel towed it up here with a 2004 Dodge 2500 4x4 with a short bed. Yes he needed a new window in the back of his cab. We bought the 5th wheel and decided we are moving to Texas for an endless summer. The drive is about 4500 miles and we are planning to do it over the course of a month.

The 5th wheel is a 2008 376srvbs from forest river. It’s a 41ft toy hauler. The GVWR is 17880. The dry weight is 13455, and the pin weight is 2640. It has three axels with brakes on all six wheels.

I have a 2004 F-350 SRW 4x4. It’s a long bed with the large four doors. It has the ford 10.5 with 3.73 and limited slip. The camper package was also installed. I installed a 20K Reese 5th wheel hitch and a p3 brake controller. I also installed a edge attitude to monitor the temps. Its set on the economy mode.

After realizing that I was over the GCWR and reading about 6L, I was a bit worried if the truck would make it to Texas. The only truck I could find in town that was rated to tow the trailer was a 2009 f-450, but they wanted 61,000 for it, and I couldn't afford it.

This last weekend we took the trailer out for a test run. It was loaded down pretty well, but not full. It was very warm for this time of the year, about 65F.

Towing it on flat ground everything work great, it was very easy to tow and stable. Acceleration was good, but not great. Braking was acceptable with the tow/haul mode, turning was fine, and felt stable in traffic (55 mph)
My coolant temps were elevated to about 210, with the oil temps near that. I don't have the EGT installed yet. Boost was a pretty constant 10 lbs. Normally my boost is about 3 lbs at highway speeds and my temps around 180.

After the trip I took it out to a place called hagalburger hill. It’s the steepest hill near town, it’s about a half mile long. I'm not sure on the grade, but it hurts your shins to walk up it. Every car I have ever owned downed shifted going up it. Coasting down it cruise control set to 55 in a Subaru would hit about 80 mphs. Most of the semi's going up it go about 40.

Going up the hill, I started to lose speed so I shifted in to third gear, and kept a steady speed of 55. This kept the rpms at about 3200. I kept my speed up but couldn't accelerate any more, even if I floored it. My coolant and Oil temps went to about 230 near the end of the hill and the electric fan kicked on and lowered them pretty quickly after getting off the pedal. The turbo was pretty load, but didn't sound bad and was putting out about 25lbs of boost.

Going down the hill everything seemed fine. I had control of the trailer and kept a steady speed of 55 and could slow down more if needed, of course it wasn't like not having a trailer, but I felt the brakes were safe.

I then turned around went back up the hill at 40 mph which the truck liked the slower speed much better. I then coasted back down the hill to see how the truck and trailer handled at higher speeds. At about 65 I felt a little bit of sway to the truck I hit about 70 with the sway increasing, before the road started going back up another smaller hill, at which point the truck and trailer slowed down and the sway went away.

To help combat the heat issues I bought a magnaflow oe replacement muffler, some hood louvers to let the heat out and a mag hytec diff cover.

Does this sound like a reasonable solution to control the heat?

My questions for more experienced drivers is what is the ramifications of exceeding the the GCWR? How are GCWR calculated?

We don't plan on driving any faster than 55? Should I be concerned about the sway at 65 and is there anything I can do to help control it? I don't understand the mechanics of what is causing the sway at higher speeds, so I'm not sure what to do about it. To me it seems like better shocks would take care of it.

Any advice would be appreciated very much. This is my first diesel truck and my first trailer, and I'm a bit intimidated by it all, but having a really fun time with it all.

-James

[BudMan5]

I have towed many Forest Rivers as an RV Transporter. FRs have a great chassis and absolutely great brakes. Your tow/haul will help you beat any hill. I just recently quit transporting but I have probably pulled 100 FRs all over the US and western Canada. None to Alaska though.

I have to tell you honestly thought that you don't have enough truck for your trailer. I would not attempt to pull that trailer without a DRW. In order to pull that trailer, I used my DRW and Firestone Ride Rite airbags which eliminated all of the motion behind me.

SmokeyWren will hopefully see your post and also respond. He is much better at the numbers than I am but I believe you are way over GCVW for your combination.

If at all possible, please consider upgrading your truck to a DRW. I would consider that infinitely more important than 4WD.

BudMan

[Bill1013]

Go here That will give you the answer about GCWR.
When you installed the 5er hitch, I hope you had it a minimum of 2" ahead of the rear axle, 3-4" would be better. That keeps the front of the truck down and helps eliminate some sway. With a 5er that large you will get some push/sway when a truck passes you and side winds can be a problem depending on speed, 55-60 is reasonable. Your tire rating should be no less than E. 25 lbs. boost is a lot, without an EGT gauge you don't know what EGT temp. was, hopefully not over 1200. With a 3.73 rear you are going to work the tranny pretty good, so keep the temps. down, controlled by your foot.
If you do go to Texas soon, there is a lot of construction on the Cassair Hwy. for about 200 miles, at least there was last August, don't think it was all completed.

Smokey will chime in as soon as he see's your post.

[kbroadnax]

Just make it to Texas even if you have use horses, pioneer style. Then you will be in paradise.

[fddriver2]

Bump. Hope Smokey sees this.

[jbecwar]

Thank you for all the responses. I have a few options to beef up the truck:

I called around and one of the local salvage yards has a complete dana 80 out of a 2004 f-450, but they wanted $2000 for it. I would need new tires and wheels since its a 10 lug axle, so I'm looking at around $4000 for the axel swap, assuming I pull it and swap it. Plus gears for the front axel, and new hubs for the front. Seems pricey.

Looking at craigslist, someone just posted a 2001 f-550 with a 7.3 in it. It runs, but knocks. They want $3200 for it. Its in Wasilla which is a short 300 miles from where I live, so it would be a long tow. Any estimates on what it cost for a new 7.3 or a rebuild? It looks like long blocks cost about $4000. How much labor do you estimate I would have to pay to swap the motors? It doesn't have a bed, so I'm sure the wife will love it. Looks like a good deal, especially if I could get knock repaired cheaply.

Someone else on craigslist had:
2001 F 450, good rear end, dual rear wheels, Four wheel drive, front axles should be good but was hit in the left front wheel, Tires are 225 X 170 X 19.5 , 11,000 miles, no engine, no transmission, no transfer case.

All For $750 bucks, but its in the middle of no where (600 mile round trip) The pictures aren't very good, but the frame looks bent in the front... For $750 just grabbing the rear axle and tires and wheels it seems like a good deal.

Oh yeah, and I found a 1965 F-750 with a 5 speed trans and a two speed axle. It has a gas 351 V8 and air brakes. It looks pretty clean, but its 300 miles from here. They want $2500 for both and it comes with a 1949 fruehof flat bed trailer, which looks pretty long. I actual like the truck, but I'm not sure what the wife would think. Also not sure about how much trouble johnny law would give me, its legal in Alaska without a CDL for moving house hold goods non-commercially, but I'm not sure what others would say on the way to tx.

-James

[BlueMuleTrucking]

Getting that 750, your looking for trouble. Also, I agree with Budman. Also, my friend's rigs run around 3k a week, unless sightseeing a month is being over-estimated.

[SmokeyWren]

Originally Posted by jbecwar

The GVWR is 17880. The dry weight is 13455, and the pin weight is 2640. It has three axels with brakes on all six wheels...I have a 2004 F-350 SRW 4x4. It’s a long bed with the large four doors. It has the ford 10.5 with 3.73 and limited slip.

Dry weight and dry hitch weight are meaningless. Ignore them. Normally you would use the GVWR of the trailer as the wet and loaded weight, but for the long trip you need to get the weight out of the trailer. Pack only enough food and drink for the trip - no stocking up on canned goods. Ship the heavy pots and pans and china and crystal with a freight or moving company, and eat off of paper plates and cups and plastic utinsils until you get to your final destination. Travel with the black and grey water tanks empty and the fesh water tank with only enough water in it to flush the pottie for the first leg of the trip. And if your toy hauler has a gas tank for the toys, be sure it's empty for the trip. You can add a few gallons of fresh water and dump the holding tanks every morning before you hit the road again. Don't haul heavy toys in the garage area. If necessary sell the toys in Alaska and buy replacements in Texas.

DO NOT try to use the trailer as a moving van. If you have to haul stuff besides your clothes and maybe some computer equipment, then rent a moving van, with maybe towing a trailer behind the van if necessary. But keep the weight out of the toy hauler. You drive one rig and the wife drive the other.

By traveling as light as possible, you should be able to keep the weight of the trailer down to around 14,500 pounds, which will be around 2,700 pounds hitch weight (18.6 percent).

Your truck has a GVWR of 9,900 pounds and a GCWR of 20,000 pounds. Try to load the truck so you don't have more than about 8,500 pounds GVW - total weight on the 4 pickup tires before you tie onto the trailer. Don't skimp on jacks and tire changing equipment and tools you might need on the road, but most other tools should be removed from the toolbox and shipped some other way.

8,500 truck weight plus 2,700 pounds hitch weight = 12,200 pounds GVW. About 2,300 pounds overloaded over the GVWR. So install Firestone RideRite air bags before the trip. Pump them up so your headlights point down the road and not up into oncoming drivers' eyes. And be certain the load range E rear tires are pumped up to 80 PSI cold.

8,500 truck weight plus 14,500 trailer weight = 23,000 GCW. About 3,000 pounds over the GCWR of the truck - assuming you have stock-size tires on the truck. If you have mounted big tires on the truck, then replace them with stock-size load-range E tires until you get to Texas.

My questions for more experienced drivers is what is the ramifications of exceeding the the GCWR?

GCWR is primarily a performance limit. Your truck can gross 20,000 pounds GCW and still climb an interstate mountain pass at a reasonable speed without overheating something. Since you'll be exceeding the GCWR by a few thousand pounds, you should plan your route to miss the worst passes over the Rockies and other bad grades. For example, come down Canada 97 (between the Rockies and the Coastal Range) to the Seattle area, then stay on I-5 to Bakersfield, then I-40 to Needles, then 95 to Blythe, then I-10 to Texas. You'll have to watch for the sign that advises you when you cross the Continental divide on I-10, otherwise you won't even realize you've just crossed the Rockies.

Going through Needles means you'll miss "The Grapevine" grade just north of Los Angeles. That hill will certainly tax your rig, so I'd detour around it. Thus the I-40 and U.S. 95 detour.

How are GCWR calculated?

A truck is outfitted with instruments to monitor all important temps, then tied onto a trailer loaded to reach the test GCWR using a calibrated automated truck (CAT) scale . Then they find a mountain pass at least so many miles long with at least so much grade. Then they maintain a certain speed up that pass. If the truck makes the grade at the desired speed with no overheating of anything, then they add more weight to the load and do it again. Eventually they will fail to maintain the desired speed, or something will overheat. So they know they exceeded the GCWR of that truck. So they reduce the weight one step and do it again, several times, to confirm they have found the correct GCWR for that combo of engine, tranny, axle radio, etc.

GVWR is more critical. It's not a performance limit but a safety limit. When overloaded over the GVWR, tires can blow out, springs can break, shocks fail to do their job properly, axles can break or burn out the bearings, headlights aim at the stars. But the engineers usually include a fudge factor in their numbers, so being 2,300 pounds over the GVWR is not disastrous if you pay attention to tire pressure and don't drive like an idiot.

So I would say your trip is possible without any bad news - Provided you get the weight of the tow vehicle (including passengers and tools and 5er hitch and everything else including full tank of diesel) below 8,500 pounds, and you unload the trailer so it has not more than about 11,800 pounds on the trailer axles. (11,800 on the axles plus 2,700 hitch weight = 14,500 GVW).

Loading the trailer for the road is critical. Since you already exceed the GVWR of the tow vehicle, then you need to distribute the weight in the toy hauler to maintain about 18 to 19 percent hitch weight - or less if possible. Your dry trailer has almost 20 percent hitch weight, so don't literally leave the garage area empty. Load boxes of clothes and extra linens back there. And anything else you can move back there that would normally be in the front of the trailer. But no toys. And before the big trip, visit your local CAT scale often until you know what has to fit where to maintain 18 percent hitch weight and not more than 11,800 pounds trailer axle weight.

As to your sway problem, I suspect the hitch was not installed properly. When tied on, the center of the kingpin should be at least two inches - and preferably 4 inches - in front of the center of the rear axle. Use a 4' carpenters' level and go straight up from the center of the rear hub to the top of the bedrail. Mark the bedrail on both sides, then run a tight string across the bed on those marks. Site down from the string to the center of the bed. Maybe snap a chalkline across the bed that will be centered on the rear axle. Then eyeball the hitch and be sure the kingpin will be in front of that line.

Even pumped up to 80 PSI, your rear tires are going to be close to their weight capacity. And you'll need about 70 PSI in the front tires, but they won't be overloaded.

[fddriver2]

Now there's an answer for ya...........

[SmokeyWren]

We don't plan on driving any faster than 55?

I'm not familiar with a 6.0L, but my hot-rodded 7.3L doesn't make enough horsepower at less than about 1,700 RPM to tow a 10,000 pound load. I have to cruise at 62 MPH (1,800 RPM) in order for the tranny to not downshift for every little bump in the road. So especially on I-10 with 75 and 80 MPH speed limits, plan on cruising at 62 MPH.

Where in Texas is your destination? If you travel east on I-20 through Midland, stop and give us a holler. We'll burn a steak or something.

[chuckster57]

then stay on I-5 to Bakersfield, then I-40 to Needles, then 95 to Blythe,

Are you sure about the route you are choosing. If you take I-5 then yes you do hit the "grapevine" before L.A. and I-40, but I-5 doesn't go into Bakersfield. Bakersfield is on CA-99. and to hit I-40 from there you need to traverse the Tehachipi pass (CA-58). I haven't pulled my 5er over the grapevine but I have done the Tehachipi route and it's no joke. Since he HAS TO go over one of the other, He can ride I-5 to L.A. to the I-10, or take CA-99 to Bakersfield and then CA-58 over the hill to I-40 at Barstow. FWIW I would rather run the Tehachipi route, no chance of getting lost on the maze in L.A.

[BudMan5]

Have taken that route several times both pulling something big west or deadheading home top the east.

CHP is very obvious on 99 and 58as they patrol heavily. They will write a ticket for only a couple of miles over the posted limit.

Watching the dogfights overhead from Edwards Air Force Base or China Lake Naval Air can be distracting though.

I had to pull over once and watch two F-18s take on two F-16s. Couldn't tell if the 18s were Navy or Marines but they were very enthusiastic

BudMan

[SmokeyWren]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

.. I-5 doesn't go into Bakersfield.

Not exactly, but it gets close, and there's a cut-across highway to Bakersfield.

Bakersfield is on CA-99.

An alternative route would be CA-99 from Sacramento to Bakersfield. I've been both ways and it doesn't really matter - one way is about as good/bad as the other.

FWIW I would rather run the Tehachipi route, no chance of getting lost on the maze in L.A.

Me too, especially if there's any chance of having to cross LA during heavy traffic hours, which is any time between about 5 a.m. and midnight. Last time I crossed from I-10 to I-5 via I-210, we camped near Palm Springs, then got up very early so we were on the road by 4 a.m. Crossing to Santa Clarita was no problem at that hour. Then I went down the Grapevine, which is no sweat when towing.

[chuckster57]

An alternative route would be CA-99 from Sacramento to Bakersfield. I've been both ways and it doesn't really matter - one way is about as good/bad as the other.

I agree he could/should take CA-99 from Sac. to Bakersfield. I have ran both. If he has any troubles there is a LOT MORE places for help on 99 than on I-5, and on 99 he is less likely to be "run over" by the traffic, I-5 is for the impatient people getting to L.A. I have been on I-5 with a clearly marked law enforcement vehicle doing 75 and been passed..the byway from I-5 to Bakersfield may not be a road I would want to be on. here in the central valley they will take a farm road that runs from one highway to another and call it a state highway, Heck we have a state highway (219) that is one lane each way through the country...speed limit 35...

[jbecwar]

Smokey, your explanations help a ton thank you.

I had the truck weighed with a full tank of gas and the hitch installed and all the tools that would be in the truck for the trip. The front axle weight was 4540 lbs. The rear axle was 3140 lbs. The scale is a public scale certified and inspected by Alaska Department of Commerce, Division of Weights and Measures, but I'm not sure on the accuracy, I think its to with in 10 pounds.

The build plate on my door lists my GVWR as 9900 lbs with a front GAWR 5200 and a Rear GAWR of 6830. Isn't the GVWR supposed to be equal to the sum of the front and rear GAWRs? At least I won't be over the GAWR's with the hitch weight. I plan on getting the trailer weighed before I go, once the trailer is loaded. We are selling pretty much everything, so I don't think we will have much in the trailer. We don't have any toys for the toy hauler... Maybe once we get to tx, things are so much cheaper there.

I believe I have the sway problem resolved. I had 3 completely dead shocks, and one shock that was leaking, but still expanding when I removed it. I replaced the shocks with some Monroe reflex truck shocks. The truck drives so much better now, its amazing.

Here is the route we are planning to go, any advice would be appreciated:

from:Fairbanks, AK to:36.208823,-102.788086 to:Houston Tx - Google Maps

Thanks again everyone.
-James