What Are My F-250 Tow Weight Spec's?

[usmc]

Hello all! Thanks for any input.....

My truck has been painted prior to me purchasing. Great paint job but they removed all the vehicle spec's I tried to find on the truck.

I just bought another 5th wheel which is considerably heavier. I'm trying to figure out my GVWR, GVCR, etc......

My pin weight on this new trailer is 2180lbs. The trailer weighs about 12,000 loaded. It does weigh 10800 dry........

I've heard based on a possible GWVR of appox. 14000 lbs that I should be in the neighborhood of 15%-20% pin weight. That would put my aloud pin weight at 2900lbs so I am within limits, no?

Just want to be sure. I just don't have any hard numbers to go by.

Also, should I tow this set up without the overdrive engaged? With the other 5th wheel I left it in overdrive and never had a problem. Never popped out of overdrive. I don't think I will have this luck towing this new rig.

I am not knowledgeable in my tranny. I've heard ya'll talk of tranny converter lock and my eyes start to glaze over...... :-)

[SmokeyWren]

Originally Posted by usmc

I'm trying to figure out my GVWR, GVCR, etc......

2002 F-250 XLT Crew Cab 7.3L

Ford says:"Never exceed the GVWR or the GCWR of your tow vehicle."

GVWR = 8,800 pounds

GCWR = it doesn't matter, because with a fifth-wheel or gooseneck trailer, you'll exceed the GVWR long before you get near the GCWR.

My pin weight on this new trailer is 2180lbs. The trailer weighs about 12,000 loaded. It does weigh 10800 dry........

Ignore dry weight. Nobody tows a dry trailer.

I've heard based on a possible GWVR of appox. 14000 lbs that I should be in the neighborhood of 15%-20% pin weight. That would put my aloud pin weight at 2900lbs so I am within limits, no?

Count on 17% to 18" pin weight. So if your wet and loaded trailer grosses 12,000, then you'll probably have pin weight over 2,000 pounds, and maybe as much as 2,200

If your pickup is the typical CrewCab 4x4 shorty with normal options, full tank of fuel, 5er hitch installed, spray-in bedliner, toolbox full of tools and extra fluids and parts, floor jack and bottle jack, cooler full of cool and one adult passenger, then your wet and loaded truck will probably gross over 8,000 pounds before you tie onto the trailer.

So you're going to be at least 1,200 pounds over your
GVWR.

Are you within limits? No, not for an F-250 PSD.

Just want to be sure. I just don't have any hard numbers to go by.

Get the hard numbers. Load the truck and trailer as though you were going on a towing trip. Go to a CAT scale, fill up with fuel, and weigh the rig.

Also, should I tow this set up without the overdrive engaged?

The only time you kill the overdrive is when the trailer is pushing you down the mountain. Then downshift to direct drive.

With the other 5th wheel I left it in overdrive and never had a problem. Never popped out of overdrive. I don't think I will have this luck towing this new rig.

Don't worry about it. The computer will downshift the tranny before it will allow the engine to lug.

I am not knowledgeable in my tranny. I've heard ya'll talk of tranny converter lock and my eyes start to glaze over...... :-)

If you have to use the brakes much when the trailer is pushing you down the mountain with the tranny in direct drive, then you might want to invest in a torque converter controller. The locked torque converter simply causes a little bit more engine braking when you are going down grades at less than about 40 MPH. I've towed in every mountain range in the lower 48, and I've never needed a torque converter controller. But my 5er grosses on 8k wet and loaded for bear. So your conditions are different.

And BTW, with my 8k 5er on the longbed F-250 4x2 CrewCab PSD, I usually gross around 9,200 to 9,600 GVW. So I'm overloaded with a trailer that grosses 4,000 pounds less than yours.

[usmc]

Thanks for responding smokey!

Help me out a second.

Is GVWR the total weight for the truck only?

What is the approximate weight of a truck like mine?

So if I am over about 1200 like you said, what can I do? Are there add ons?

The truck doesn't push from the trailer. So I think I am ok as far as the converter goes by your discreption.

How do I weigh the truck and trailer, as one unit? Different axles?

Good point on no one tows a dry trailer! :-)

What is the major differences between a 250 and 350 concerning towing GVWR and the difference in their abilities or construction, if that makes sense. I have a hard problem thinking the 350 can do this job when they have the same drive train and the 350 weighs more to boot.

Thanks again.....

[dmd]

Drive train isnt the issue, suspension is...... 450 and 550 have the same drive
train as the 250 too.... That isnt the point..

[usmc]

Originally Posted by dmd

Drive train isnt the issue, suspension is...... 450 and 550 have the same drive
train as the 250 too.... That isnt the point..

I understand what you are saying. But that said, what are my options? Buy an eighteen wheel truck? People say my next truck would be a 350. A 350 from the numbers I have seen cannot pull any more weight than a 250. Or the GVWR is no different. I was trying to prove a point about it being the same drive train is all. So there is no difference. Why pay more for a 350 if it can't carry more than a 250?

I almost need to go even larger like the 450 or 550.

I am trying to learn about something I have no knowledge of and need some ideas to pull this rig I have purchased. The problem with dealers are they say you will have no problem towing with a certain tow vehicle and it is wrong.

[NCheek]

F-350 dually is going to be the next step up from F-250/F-350 SRW. Then you start getting into the F-450/550, and gain better frames, brakes, axles and suspension, but keep the rest of the drive-train. When you move to the F-650/750 and other Class 6,7, and 8 vehicles, you upgrade everything; chassis, engine, trans, suspension, brakes, and cab. Also with the bigger trucks, you could get them bare bones or shipped thru an upfitter and set up nicer than a luxury car, it's all a matter of how much cash you are willing to drop.The only thing that might slow you down on the bigger rigs would be the need for a CDL.

[OMCUSNR]

Originally Posted by usmc

I understand what you are saying. But that said, what are my options? Buy an eighteen wheel truck? People say my next truck would be a 350. A 350 from the numbers I have seen cannot pull any more weight than a 250. Or the GVWR is no different. I was trying to prove a point about it being the same drive train is all. So there is no difference. Why pay more for a 350 if it can't carry more than a 250?

I almost need to go even larger like the 450 or 550.

I am trying to learn about something I have no knowledge of and need some ideas to pull this rig I have purchased. The problem with dealers are they say you will have no problem towing with a certain tow vehicle and it is wrong.

You are not alone in this. Many, many Rv'ers are severely under trucked. Like it's been pointed out, it's not the pulling, its the stopping & handling that's at issue. The problem isn't really with the dealers. Its with us. We usually hear what we want to hear when we go out & buy toys. I know some full timers that use 650, 750, IH Med duty, some Issuzus to pull their 40'+ triple axle 5th wheels, but they're rare birds that have done their research before buying.

Weigh your truck & trailer, without that you're guessing. Most truck stops have CAT scales, and within 30 miles of where I live I have 3 state scales that are on but not manned (not as accurate or versitile as a CAT scale) for a quick & dirty measurement.

Realistically, you're going to need a 350 dually or a 450 for the new trailer you just bought, so your options are:

1. Re-truck with the right size. The F450 is gong to be considered a commercial vehicle in many parts of the country for registartion and insurance purposes.

2. Re-trailer - downsize to fit your truck. Maybe the dealer will take it back if you get a right-size from them.

3. Keep what you got, and roll the dice every time you run down the road. You probably will never have an accident, but if you do, the legal ramifications are severe. Also, you are putting loads & strains on the truck that will require more maintenance to keep in good & safe operating condition.

With number 3, I'd say you're going to need to keep a very close eye on your trans. A bigger cooler is going to be a good idea if you tow hot & in the hills. Get gauges, and drive by them, not the speedometer. You'll need EGT, trans temp & boost as a minimum. Brakes are also going to wear faster, and I'd recommend a good PMS schedule if you go with 3.

OMC

[SpikeEng]

Originally Posted by usmc

I understand what you are saying. But that said, what are my options? Buy an eighteen wheel truck? People say my next truck would be a 350. A 350 from the numbers I have seen cannot pull any more weight than a 250. Or the GVWR is no different. I was trying to prove a point about it being the same drive train is all. So there is no difference. Why pay more for a 350 if it can't carry more than a 250?

I almost need to go even larger like the 450 or 550.

I am trying to learn about something I have no knowledge of and need some ideas to pull this rig I have purchased. The problem with dealers are they say you will have no problem towing with a certain tow vehicle and it is wrong.

Up until recently, my wife and were shopping for a toy hauler for many months. Since we have 2003 F250, I might be able to pass on some relevant information that makes sense.
For starters, there are several weights you must be aware of:
1. The weight of your loaded truck, which included fluids, passengers, and cargo which includes the pin or hitch weight of the trailer.
2. The weight of item #1 but as it's distributed over the front and rear axles.
3. The loaded weight of the trailer you're towing.
4. The combined weight of both.
For now, ignore how the weight is distributed right to left. Just assume it's roughly equal.

Back to item #1:
As already mentioned, the GVWR for your truck (and mine) is 8800 lbs. This is the maximum weight that you should not exceed. Even though others exceed it, it would be wise not to. Take your truck to a scale and weigh it to get the total weight. Then, weigh the front and rear. The sum of the front + rear should equal the total, or should be very close. If your truck weighs 6900 lbs, that leaves 1900 lbs allowable for the pin/hitch weight assuming that you weighed the truck with a full tank of gas, passengers, plus any stuff you'd keep in the truck (8800-6900=1900). If your hitch weight is 2180 lbs, you want to make sure that your fully loaded truck, included all passengers, dogs, etc. doesn't weigh more than 6620 lbs.

Item #2: On the same tag that was painted over which specified the GVWR, there are/were maximum weight ratings for both axles. For simplicity, you don't want to exceed the rear axle weight rating. If you weighed the truck and found out the weight on the rear tires, you'd be able to verify the allowable pin/hitch that the rear axle can handle. BUT, you still don't want to exceed the GVWR (item #1). In reality, you will probably exceed the GVWR before you exceed the rear axle weight rating. Yet, it's good to double check.

Before I go on to item #3 and #4, let me quickly address the GVWR difference between a 2003 F250 and F350 (SRW) for the truck I have. I'm 99% sure that the specs for the 2002 F250 and F350 are the similar. The GVWR for the F350 is 9900 lbs. In other words, it's 1100 lbs greater. Thus, if you have an F350, it could handle 1100 lbs more of cargo than the F250. So, if you weighed your truck and it was 6800 lbs fully loaded, and the hitch weight was actually 2180 lbs, AND you had an F350, you'd be 920 lbs under the maximum allowed.

Back to item 3 and 4. The maximum 5th wheel trailer weight that I can tow is the same for both the F250 and the F350: 13,600 lbs as long as the rear gears are 4:30's (I have a V10). If the actual dry weight is 12,000 lbs, then the cargo that could be added is 1,600 lbs but only if don't exceed the maximum combined weight limit, which is 20,000 lbs. In other words, if the trailer weighs 13,000 lbs loaded, the truck with passengers and fluids shouldn't exceed 7000 lbs. If the trailer weighs 13,500 loaded, the truck should exceed 6500 lbs. With that in mind, I hope you can start to see how each weight rating can't be evaluated independently of the other. Since you're trailer only weighs 12,000 lbs fully loaded (fingers crossed), you're well under the combined limit. But, you're probably over the limit on the GVWR of the truck, unless your actual weight including passengers is low enough to stay under the GVWR.

What did we do? We bought a light weight toy hauler. Even though it's 37 ft long, it's only 7800 lbs and the hitch weight is only 1720 lbs (it's a low profile trailer similar to a race car hauler).

Item #3 by OMC is EXTREMELY important. I wouldn't suggest rolling the dice and I will state the legal ramifications in a different way: it could change your life. Don't tempt fate.

Good luck.

[MPD56]

Edited: Read SpikeEng post above. I was slow typing, but he has been there(LOL).

USMC: All the posts have good advice. The sticker that was on the truck is what the truck can tow and payload you can carry in the truck, adding mods to the truck will not change these figures in the eyes of the law. As far as F250 vs F350 SRW, they will tow (Pull) the same, but the F350 SRW will carry about 1200 pounds more payload (in the truck). I would talk to a Ford Dealer, he should be able to get your sticker figures using your vin number. I just bought a 2008 Ford F350 SRW CC PSD, it was about a $1000.00 more, and the payload is 3200 pounds on the sticker.

You can go to the links I posted below and there is a lot of information on pulling a 5th wheel trailers (first link) and there is also a basic towing guide (depends on the options on your truck) for your truck on their home page (bottom link). The people there, have been there, done that and will be glad to help you out.



http://www.trailerlife.com/cforum/index.cfm/fuseaction/listings/forum/24.cfm
http://www.trailerlife.com/cforum/index.cfm/fuseaction/listings/forum/41.cfm
http://www.trailerlife.com/

MPD56

[petr]

As far as going to a larger truck and a CDL. You can get something like a Freightliner FL or buisiness class truck, an F650 or equivilent without needing a CDL. As long as the weight rating does not exceed the Federal DOT requirement and you don't get air brakes, you will not need a CDL. My dad has a Freightliner FL50 with a 300 HP Cat engine. He ordered it and optioned it out the way he wanted it right from a dealer. The total cost was a slight bit above what a F450 would have cost and he got a better truck that can handle just about any trailer out there and stop it safely.

Pete

[SmokeyWren]

Originally Posted by petr

The total cost was a slight bit above what a F450 would have cost and he got a better truck that can handle just about any trailer out there and stop it safely.

Baloney. That's your opinion, but not a fact. The FL50 has about the same weight limits as the F-550.

The Freightliner FL50 is a class 5 truck, equivalent to an F-550. It's made by Chrysler, so in effect it's a big Dodge. Whether it's better or worse than a class 5 Ford or Chevy or GMC is debatable.

But a class 5 truck has its limits, and if it's not big enough, then Freightliner also makes an FL60, equivalent to an F-650. And they make an FL70, equivalent to an F-750. Ford offers numerous versions of Cat and Cummins engines and Allison automatics and name-brand stick shifters in the F-650 and F-750, including an optional two-speed rear axle. So you can spec out a Ford with almost identical drivetrain to the equivalent Freightliners. Including a 300-horse Cat if that floats your boat.

The only advantage the Freightliner offers is that you can order a Mercedes-Benz diesel engine in it, and you cannot order that from Ford or GM. But then again, it's debatable whether the M-B engine is "better" than the Cat or Cummins or International or Isusu engines available in the competitive trucks.

[petr]

Smokey, you are right. I failed to put in my post that they are just my opinion. Sorry if I misled anyone.

Pete

[js2941]

For those that may consider moving into a "truck", ie a class 7 or 8, here is a good resource for your consideration. It is mostly RVr's who've crossed over and will never come back. For me, a class 8 will be my next truck for a variety of reasons, but mostly for the handling and braking issues with light trucks (F250-F550) and heavy trailers. I've kept an eye on the referred forum for a few years now and have found those there to be as helpful and friendly as those here at the DieselStop. Escapees Discussion Forum - Powered by eve community Go to the HDT forum.

USMC, pm me & I'll send you a copy of the Ford 2002 Towing Guide.

[js2941]

More truck selection info I found. Why a Big Truck?