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Old 11-20-2008, 09:19 PM   #1 (permalink)
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1998 DT466E Low Boost problem

I really have enjoyed reading some of the threads and the vast knowledge you guys seem to have. Here is my problem and I would sure appreciate some help before I go to the shop again.

HISTORY:
1998 4700 International 26,000lb straight truck with the DT466E. Low Profile
250 hp Allison World 6-speed transmission. 3 computer system.

I drive the truck long distance about 5 times a year for 2000miles. After 10 years I have only 210,000 miles on the truck. The truck had all the power I could have ask for. The 250ho was a joy to drive.

In Nov 2006 at 198,000 miles I had a water pump failure and over heated the engine a bit. International shop replaced the water pump and all seemed well. The next week I went on one of my long trips and got 600 miles when the engine just started to slow down. Pulled off the road for 5 minutes, started back up and all was fine for 10 minutes then slowed again. Engine was not over heating, just slowing down to 15MPH.

I was within 3 miles of a shop in NJ I knew of. They did an in-frame overhaul. From that point on I have not had the great power I was accustomed to. Engine starts fine, runs fine, but lacks any great power from a start or any kind of load like the smallest incline.

I have had it in the International shop numerous times looking for the problem but to no avail. Finally, 2 years later, I have learned from a different shop that services the Allison trans that I have only 3lbs of boost. Also it seems I have a good 2600rpm but a stall test of between 1000 - 1200rpm.
Checked the cooler & hoses and found no leaks.

The in-frame did not replace the injectors but did replace the head plate behind the water pump. Also in-frame replaced one exhaust valve and a rocker.

OTHER THOUGHTS: I'm not a mechanic so I really am guessing below:
This 3 lbs boost seems to be the key.
Could it be other exhaust valves not sealing.
Does this model turbo have a wastegate. I'm told no. If not then what controls the turbo speed and pressure? Maybe that is the problem.
I notice that sometimes when I have a lot of power, but not all the power, my transmission temp gauge is elevated. I have noticed the temp gauge is sometimes sporadic and often in the winter sits at 100 degrees.
Maybe Computers not talking. Local International shop seems to have a problem checking all 3 computers. What about installing a wiring harness for a single computer from a 3 computer system?
Lastly injectors? But what would they have to do with low boost.
Help please!
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:29 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I personally can't give you a lot of help other than to put you at the top of the list so to speak. I have seen other posts on the DT446E here. Some one that knows this engine will come along...there are LOTS of people on this site and the one you are waiting for might not be looking at the moment. Have you used the "search" function with "DT446E"
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Old 11-21-2008, 10:34 AM   #3 (permalink)
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i don't know much about 466's. I work on 2stroke emd and detroit diesels, but I think basic diesel engine knowledge would tell us boost loss is either one of two things.

1. exhaust or boost piping leaks. check for black soot anywhere near the exhaust piping up to the turbo, I would think you could hear the ticking tho. try your best to find air leaks on the pressure side of the turbo. With someone revving the engine, you should be able to feel any air losses, and possibly hear the whistle of excaping air.

2. Not enough fuel. Without the amount of fuel, you cannot make boost. I don't know how you can check the injectors on that engine without pulling them. On 2strokes I'd check the individual exhaust manifolds with an Infrared gun. Comparing temperatures will tell you if injectors or valves are not set properly/misfiring. dt466's have injection pumps too yes? I don't know how you could test it without pulling it.

I would figure on fueling issues, if it was just air, I would think you'd notice the increased cloud of smoke.
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Old 11-23-2008, 06:25 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDGEMAN View Post
OTHER THOUGHTS: I'm not a mechanic so I really am guessing below:
This 3 lbs boost seems to be the key.
Could it be other exhaust valves not sealing.
Does this model turbo have a waste gate. I'm told no. If not then what controls the turbo speed and pressure? Maybe that is the problem.
I notice that sometimes when I have a lot of power, but not all the power, my transmission temp gauge is elevated. I have noticed the temp gauger is sometimes sporadic and often in the winter sits at 100 degrees.
Maybe Computers not talking. Local International shop seems to have a problem checking all 3 computers. What about installing a wiring harness for a single computer from a 3 computer system?
Lastly injectors? But what would they have to do with low boost.
Help please!
I'm no expert but here is a thought. On early 2000 model intl in line sixes there was a TSB regarding faulty variable vanes actuating mechanisms in the turbo. I was involved with a truck that intermittently would not pull the hat off your head. Diagnostics showed nothing and thee first trip to the dealer was useless. I communicated directly with intl who sent me a copy of the TBS and called the dealer and instructed them to replace the turbo without further ado. It worked. whether it goes back to 98 models I can't say and I would never find the TSB in a million years but there was a simple test that you could do visually that was indicative of the problem. It had to do with how far the actuator rod moved when the ignition was turned on. That's all I remember. Hope this is helpful.
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Old 11-24-2008, 11:12 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Some models might have a waistegate. Just check on the backside of the turbo. It will look like a soda can with an adjustable rod coming out of it. See if you can move the lever with a pair of pliers. It may be frozen. Or the diaphragm in the waistegate acuator maybe blown out. You can test that by using regulated compressed air at about 30 psi. and blowing it into the small blue hose that comes off the front of the turbo. This would check the whole operation of the waistegate if equipped.

Other things to check...

Try swapping boost sensors with a good one. Its located on the valve cover by the hose going into the engine on top. I've had some of those get stuck with a low reading causing those symptoms. It seems like they can be tempermental.

Check the fuel pressure. There is a screen in front of the secondary filter that some people don't know about. Its right of the hand priming pump when looking at the engine from the drivers side. Just unscrew the housing and clean the filter. It looks very similar to an air pressure regulator.

Basically if you can't build sufficient boost with that engine from the get go the ECM seems to limit the fuel until sufficient boost is availible.

Injectors....I would think you would be able to make more than 3lbs still. Unless one is starving the others of oil. You would need to have them tested or perform a cylinder test while running.


As far as the shops not being able to communicate with the engine. It sounds like a data link failure. You can't really go from a 3 box to a one box system. If the computers aren't talking to each other it could cause low power. As any needed info would be missing. However I would imagine you would have check trans lights and check engine lights as well.
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Old 11-28-2008, 07:16 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselSVT View Post
Some models might have a waistegate. Just check on the backside of the turbo. It will look like a soda can with an adjustable rod coming out of it. See if you can move the lever with a pair of pliers. It may be frozen. Or the diaphragm in the waistegate acuator maybe blown out. You can test that by using regulated compressed air at about 30 psi. and blowing it into the small blue hose that comes off the front of the turbo. This would check the whole operation of the waistegate if equipped.

Other things to check...

Try swapping boost sensors with a good one. Its located on the valve cover by the hose going into the engine on top. I've had some of those get stuck with a low reading causing those symptoms. It seems like they can be tempermental.

Check the fuel pressure. There is a screen in front of the secondary filter that some people don't know about. Its right of the hand priming pump when looking at the engine from the drivers side. Just unscrew the housing and clean the filter. It looks very similar to an air pressure regulator.

Basically if you can't build sufficient boost with that engine from the get go the ECM seems to limit the fuel until sufficient boost is availible.

Injectors....I would think you would be able to make more than 3lbs still. Unless one is starving the others of oil. You would need to have them tested or perform a cylinder test while running.


As far as the shops not being able to communicate with the engine. It sounds like a data link failure. You can't really go from a 3 box to a one box system. If the computers aren't talking to each other it could cause low power. As any needed info would be missing. However I would imagine you would have check trans lights and check engine lights as well.

X2 on SVTs advice...I am sure his turbo has a waste gate...I have rebuilt several of these engines and all of them had a waste gate on the turbo. If that waste gate is stuckk it will cause power issues.

Swapping the boost sensor on the valve cover is a good one too...Thats a quick and cheap diag. to try.... I also wanted to add check the firewall plugs on the drivers side...I have had several trucks with symptoms like this one and the plugs pins were arching/grounding out causing intermittant problems.

Another thing I always did when I rebuilt a 466 was send the injectors out for rebuild...I can't believe the dealer didnt replace them or have them rebuilt...

The fuel hand primer screen is a definate must to check like svt said if thats clogged with crap you will be starved of fuel...

Did the dealer pressurize your CAC system with shop air and check for leaks???? If the CAC has a leak that will cause problems too....Just trying to help out....
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Old 11-29-2008, 04:35 PM   #7 (permalink)
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+2 on smokekicksass added input.

Smoky...Im in CT as well. Where do you turn wrenches?
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Old 11-30-2008, 05:51 AM   #8 (permalink)
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+2 on smokekicksass added input.

Smoky...Im in CT as well. Where do you turn wrenches?

I work for Ryder in hartford right by IH...I used to work at nutmeg IH in hartford too LOL DUNGEON!!!!!
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Old 12-01-2008, 12:39 AM   #9 (permalink)
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dt466e low boost

I would check your valve clearance settings to make sure they are in spec, which could cause a low boost condition.
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Old 12-01-2008, 11:32 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Here is the latest update. The truck has been in the shop since Friday Nov 21st. Today is Monday Dec 1st. (allow for Thanksgiving Day)
The shop has replaced the turbo. They looked inside the intake of the old one and found the nut missing that holds the blades on the shaft. Shop calls me for authorization to replace the turbo on Tuesday Nov 25.
New turbo is installed at some point. The repairs are now on hold for a sensor to arrive.

I have lots of questions about this nut missing.
1. If the nut came off you would think there would have been a lot of blade damage. No damage can be seen and the blade turns freely.
2. Why not just put a new nut on and recheck for proper boost?

How is the sensor checked. (As suggested above just swap out the sensor with a new one to see if the problem is fixed.)
Why are we waiting on a new sensor? My guess is because they put a new turbo on and it still does not work! Then they decide to put a sensor on????

Thanks so much for everyones input and ideas.
(This is like hiring a home repair contractor, you better know how to do the work yourself just so you can oversee that it is being done right the first time.)

Last edited by EDGEMAN; 12-01-2008 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 12-01-2008, 11:54 AM   #11 (permalink)
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If the nut was missing replace the turbo. It must have not been torqued right but you figure it would take the compressor wheel out. Or maybe it was missing to begin with and they didn't see it when it was installed. I wouldn't want the piece of mind of just re-installing the nut and running it.

To check the sensor they would need to use a laptop or prolink and actually see what the sensor was reading and compare that with a mechanical gauge if they really wanted to get technical. Sounds like your making some headway.


Smoky- I work down at Atlantic Detroit. I'm on the road. I think I picked up one of our laptops from ryder after someone left it in a truck lol.
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Old 12-02-2008, 07:44 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselSVT View Post
If the nut was missing replace the turbo. It must have not been torqued right but you figure it would take the compressor wheel out. Or maybe it was missing to begin with and they didn't see it when it was installed. I wouldn't want the piece of mind of just re-installing the nut and running it.

To check the sensor they would need to use a laptop or prolink and actually see what the sensor was reading and compare that with a mechanical gauge if they really wanted to get technical. Sounds like your making some headway.


Smoky- I work down at Atlantic Detroit. I'm on the road. I think I picked up one of our laptops from ryder after someone left it in a truck lol.

LOL Figures...dosen't suprise me.....I work 3rd at ryder....the pm kids on 2nd probably did it lol....

X2 with SVT s advise....sounds like someone is shotgunning parts....I dont believe them about that nut...If it was the one on the front or rear impeller that turbo would have S*!^ tha bed.....I think the dealer is guessing.....Obivisoly the new turbo didn't help at all with the power issue or you would have got a call and been getting your truck trust me they dont want it in their yard, or in the shop.....

Have they run the Diagnostics on the laptop yet,or did they just start replacing parts...did they check and make sure electronically everything is sound before condeming to a mechanical failure? Sounds like a crappy way to troubleshoot if you ask me...Just replacing parts and not isolating the problem to a particular part of the system....and it is on your dime.... I hope they figure it out for ya......with out it costing as much as a new truck....Keep us posted....
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Old 12-02-2008, 12:21 PM   #13 (permalink)
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LOL sounds like someone is shotgunning parts....I dont believe them about that nut...If it was the one on the front or rear impeller that turbo would have S*!^ tha bed.....I think the dealer is guessing.....Obviously the new turbo didn't help at all with the power issue ....
SmokY: I agree with you completely. I have treated the shop very well over the last 9 years thinking most of the time they were shooting in the dark. spent a lot of money with no complaints. This time I am keeping the head service manager and his assistant alert that I am watching close and expect the truck to be fixed without paying for stuff not needed. The turbo is a big question in my mine but the shop insists the nut could not be safely torqued back on. I can see some rather minor scaring to one blade. And is that not a nut right there below the flat piece on the shaft. I need to go look at the new one.

Anyway the new turbo and sensor has the boost @ 21lbs under a road test but the mechanics say there is still a noticable lack of power. The foreman says the stall test RPM is not up to International specs yet.

I have to say my local shop inherited this problem from the NJ in-frame guys. So I can't really say too much, they are trying.


I am going to be in CT next week. If this is not resolved within the next day or so I picking up the truck and bringing to you.

Last edited by EDGEMAN; 12-02-2008 at 07:46 PM.
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:06 PM   #14 (permalink)
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LOL Figures...dosen't suprise me.....I work 3rd at ryder....the pm kids on 2nd probably did it lol....
No WE left a laptop in YOUR truck lol. 2 months later someone found it up at your place.

EDGEMAN seriously if your going to be in CT...I don't have International software on my company laptop but we have one at the shop that does. I can plug into it and scope it out. 21 lbs of boost is about right for that engine. I don't know what the stall test spec is. Have them check that screen before the filter just tell them you don't recall if its ever been checked. And yes that is the nut!
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Last edited by DieselSVT; 12-02-2008 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 12-03-2008, 11:11 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Ah ha! So the nut is there and the turbo was probably good except maybe a problem with the wastegate. Or the additional boost is a result of the new sensor. I'll have to say this is pissing me off and it is amazing a professional shop can't get it right.
They are checking the fuel filters today and whatever else they can think of. I suggest they get on the phone with the International engineers and stay on the phone until they get someone that actually fix this.
Where in CT?
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