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Old 10-09-2006, 05:12 PM   #1 (permalink)
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does transmission fluid expand?

I had a bet with a friend of mine . He insists tranny fluid expands under heat . I thought the whole idea of hydrolics was fluids don't expand or contract .

Anyway , he just showed me in a chiltons book , and well yea it says it expands when warm .

Am I out 50$ or what??
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Old 10-09-2006, 05:41 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: does transmission fluid expand?

Sorry to tell you this, but yes it does. Which is why you always check the fluid level with the vehicle at operating temperatures.
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Old 10-09-2006, 05:42 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: does transmission fluid expand?

Yes you are out 50 bucks. I think you have confused compress with expand and contract. That's why there is a hot and cold level on many radiator tanks as well as engine and transmission dipsticks.

I'm not sure but I think everything expands and contracts with temp changes.
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Old 10-09-2006, 08:03 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: does transmission fluid expand?

[ QUOTE ]
I had a bet with a friend of mine . He insists tranny fluid expands under heat . I thought the whole idea of hydrolics was fluids don't expand or contract .

Anyway , he just showed me in a chiltons book , and well yea it says it expands when warm .

Am I out 50$ or what??

[/ QUOTE ]
Based strictly on terminology, you are out $50.
All known materials expand or contract with differences in steady state (after a long time) heat. I.E. If you leave something in a hot enviroment for a long time, it will expand or contract based on the material. The same goes for cold.
BUT, the hydraulics are, for our purposes, incompressible. There is a big difference. Incompressible means you can't squish it(very much). This is a desirable trait for fluids transmiting power (ATF).
BTW, this whole incompressible fluid goes flying out the window when you talk about high pressures(>2500PSI or there abouts). Such is the case w/ the new Cummins & the Bosch HP common fuel rail.
As a tidbit, bet your friend $100 that water does not have a constant expansion rate. At the end of the day you should be $50 richer than when you got up. Remember the three basic states of matter? Solid, liquid, gas. They all have different expansion/contraction rates for the same matter(material, substance, stuff).

Daniel
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Old 10-10-2006, 08:43 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: does transmission fluid expand?

[ QUOTE ]
... BTW, this whole incompressible fluid goes flying out the window when you talk about high pressures. (>2500PSI or thereabouts)
Daniel

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you meant to say 25,000 pounds/square inch, not 2,500 pounds/square inch.

2,500 pounds/square inch is a fairly typical pressure for hydraulic systems and has been for many years.
25,000 pounds/square inch is a typical for new common-rail Diesel fuel injection systems, and it's only recently that pressures have been cranked up that high.


Back to the original question: Yes, it's true that transmission fluid expands when it heats up, (and that's true for both automatic and manual transmission oils) but it's a small percentage which for all practical purposes can be ignored.

But you don't have to take our word (or Chilton's) for it; it's simple enough to put a sample in the fridge and in the oven and see for yourself what happens. (don't exceed about 250 degrees F)
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Old 10-10-2006, 10:20 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: does transmission fluid expand?

"(don't exceed about 250 degrees F)"
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old 10-10-2006, 12:46 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: does transmission fluid expand?

Automatic trans fluid can see much more the 250 degrees when in operation and being worked HARD. Of course it's not gonna like it.
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Old 10-10-2006, 04:30 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: does transmission fluid expand?

It rises enough to see about an inch difference depending on what transmission and what dipstick. I would call that pretty significant expansion.

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Old 10-10-2006, 07:38 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: does transmission fluid expand?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... BTW, this whole incompressible fluid goes flying out the window when you talk about high pressures. (>2500PSI or thereabouts)
Daniel

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you meant to say 25,000 pounds/square inch, not 2,500 pounds/square inch.

2,500 pounds/square inch is a fairly typical pressure for hydraulic systems and has been for many years.
25,000 pounds/square inch is a typical for new common-rail Diesel fuel injection systems, and it's only recently that pressures have been cranked up that high.


Back to the original question: Yes, it's true that transmission fluid expands when it heats up, (and that's true for both automatic and manual transmission oils) but it's a small percentage which for all practical purposes can be ignored.

But you don't have to take our word (or Chilton's) for it; it's simple enough to put a sample in the fridge and in the oven and see for yourself what happens. (don't exceed about 250 degrees F)

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I meant 2,500PSI. That is about where things *start* to get strange. It is really *gone* out the window by the time you reach 25,000PSI. Hence the reason it has only been done recently, among other reasons.
Assuming that a fluid (air, liquid, transmission fluid, etc..) is incompressible makes an ungodly set of equations somewhat managable with the use of other assumptions like Newtonian fluid, linear shear force, and about 5-10 others. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/vomit.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/vomit.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/vomit.gif[/img]
Only the past few years has the metalurgy and manufacturing been able to *reliably* produce a system that works at 25000PSI. But a good computer is needed to work the equations that are needed to design the mechanicals of the system (pump, plumbing, fittings, etc).

Daniel
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11-06: DIY Open Element, EBPV & TC exhaust brake.
02-07: 40 gal '05 F550 aft-axle tank = ~60 gal total.
03-07BTS downpipe & 6pos chip.

04-07: ]226,000mi 277HP, 543TQ, Graph
05-07: EGT, Boost, Trans from Tymar
06-07: 4" exhaust, 31 row 6.0L trans cooler
08-07: BTS Transmission.[/url]
09-07: 80.76 @ 16.527

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Old 10-11-2006, 12:12 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: does transmission fluid expand?

Cowboy Dan I just looked at your profile and I had guessed right.
What kind of engineering degree are you working on? The water bet should work great for igotrobbed IF his buddy does not read this forum.

The main thing with transmission fluid is to keep it from overheating as that can cause all sorts of problems. I like to use synthetic fluid as an extra level of protection as well as a add-on cooler.
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Old 10-12-2006, 06:10 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: does transmission fluid expand?

[ QUOTE ]
Cowboy Dan I just looked at your profile and I had guessed right.
What kind of engineering degree are you working on? The water bet should work great for igotrobbed IF his buddy does not read this forum.

The main thing with transmission fluid is to keep it from overheating as that can cause all sorts of problems. I like to use synthetic fluid as an extra level of protection as well as a add-on cooler.

[/ QUOTE ]
Mechanical Engineering @ IUPUI.
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11-06: DIY Open Element, EBPV & TC exhaust brake.
02-07: 40 gal '05 F550 aft-axle tank = ~60 gal total.
03-07BTS downpipe & 6pos chip.

04-07: ]226,000mi 277HP, 543TQ, Graph
05-07: EGT, Boost, Trans from Tymar
06-07: 4" exhaust, 31 row 6.0L trans cooler
08-07: BTS Transmission.[/url]
09-07: 80.76 @ 16.527

My picture & diagrams
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Old 10-12-2006, 11:25 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: does transmission fluid expand?

Then why not use a non-newtonian fluid as a lock-up medium in the torque converter of a transmission?

Sorry to potentially hijack the thread, this idea just popped in my head. Guess I'll have to fire up SolidWorks and design the converter now [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old 10-13-2006, 06:44 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: does transmission fluid expand?

So fluids do compress also is what your saying Cowboy Dan ?
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Old 10-13-2006, 07:29 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: does transmission fluid expand?

[ QUOTE ]
Then why not use a non-newtonian fluid as a lock-up medium in the torque converter of a transmission?

Sorry to potentially hijack the thread, this idea just popped in my head. Guess I'll have to fire up SolidWorks and design the converter now [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
You let me know how that goes! I want to be a beta tester. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] If I remember correctly, toothpaste is non-newtonian. That would be funny to see. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Imagine someone at a truckstop buying a case of toothpaste because they blew a cooler line. I can imagine the crowd now....

[ QUOTE ]

So fluids do compress also is what your saying Cowboy Dan ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. Fluids do compress. Some compress more than others for a given pressure, but they all compress. At least, all that I know of. There was an instructor who had some experience with unobtainium, though. Very expensive stuff.
Now that I think about it, I don't know what the factor (similiar to Young's modulus for solids) would be for the amount of volume change at a given pressure difference. I'm sure it exists somewhere, and someone will chime in with it soon.

Daniel
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11-06: DIY Open Element, EBPV & TC exhaust brake.
02-07: 40 gal '05 F550 aft-axle tank = ~60 gal total.
03-07BTS downpipe & 6pos chip.

04-07: ]226,000mi 277HP, 543TQ, Graph
05-07: EGT, Boost, Trans from Tymar
06-07: 4" exhaust, 31 row 6.0L trans cooler
08-07: BTS Transmission.[/url]
09-07: 80.76 @ 16.527

My picture & diagrams
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Old 10-13-2006, 07:30 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: does transmission fluid expand?

"Fluid" is not really the correct term. A "fluid" is something that flows. Air is a fluid as is water. A "liquid" is what is incompressible as far as our limited observations tell us. When the pressures get extremely high is when these strange things happen.

Birken
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