General DieselDiscussion about diesels in general. All brands are welcome, please refrain from brand wars. Discussions about types of diesel fuel also go here.
Chevrolet | New Electric Car - Concept Chevy Volt From an engineering point of view we discussed it here previously and a full electric with a small diesel to charge would be pretty awesome. They say 1 liter flex fuel but I was perusing some of their press releases and they said diesel also. So at least they are considering it. Im thinking like a .8 liter diesel running at peak efficiency to throw a charge on this and the fuel economy would be insane.
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"Im voting for Dukakis"
1984 E350 Quadravan, 6.9 IDI, 4x4, E4OD, ext. van : recent acquisition 1984 mitsubishi mighty max 4x4; a work in progress to run on homebrew if all goes well
If a typical Volt owner drives 8,000 city miles per year (on battery power) and 8,000 highway miles per year (at 40 mi/gal), it'll consume 200 gallons of gasoline.
What possible scenario justifies either installing a more-expensive Diesel engine, or developing multiple powertrain options for a limited-production vehicle?
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Douglas Campbell, P.E.
1986 Isuzu P'up, 177,673.8 miles.
- Hella headlights (highly recommended)
- DOT C-2 back end (also recommended)
- R-12 air conditioner converted to R-406a. Saved ozone and money
- 4.1:1 final drive converted to 3.4:1. Quieter, better mileage but it's a good thing I live in the flat Midwest.
- 9/22/2007, age 21: Still running well when reluctantly sent away for reincarnation, due to body & frame rust.
If a typical Volt owner drives 8,000 city miles per year (on battery power) and 8,000 highway miles per year (at 40 mi/gal), it'll consume 200 gallons of gasoline.
What possible scenario justifies either installing a more-expensive Diesel engine, or developing multiple powertrain options for a limited-production vehicle?
BMW and Mercedes charge only a 1000 euro premium for their equivalent 3L diesel vs. 3L gas engines in Europe. If a diesel Volt got 60 mpg highway at $4.80/gal and gas 40 mpg @ $4.20/gal, that computes to a $0.025 saving/mile or $200/year under your scenario. If the price premium were a reasonable $1000 (for a 0.8L 2-3 cyl diesel it should be less!) payoff would be 5 years. Assuming the Euro-diesel precedent of $533/L, the prorated premium should be only $427; payoff in 2 years + 6 weeks.
Furthermore, if fuel goes to $10/gal (possible if Iran closes Strait of Hormuz in a war over nukes) I don't think "limited production" of cars like this will be the correct term.
I don't think diesel will be more than gas in the US forever; my wife's next car will be a BMW 335xd.
They said diesel Doc not me. Not sure why they would even make a gasser electric tbh when a diesel will have better efficiency unless the gasser is di.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drcampbell
or developing multiple powertrain options for a limited-production vehicle?
What if, now its a big what if, but what if everyone caught a clue and figured out that suvs serve no purpose and bought an econimcal car like this. Then it wouldnt be limited production. I bet the demand for prius and insights has gone thru the roof.
__________________
"Im voting for Dukakis"
1984 E350 Quadravan, 6.9 IDI, 4x4, E4OD, ext. van : recent acquisition 1984 mitsubishi mighty max 4x4; a work in progress to run on homebrew if all goes well
I cannot find any more references to the diesel. Im a little dissapointed. Its put in there kind of as a hindsight or an attention grabber. Electro-Shock Therapy
Lets think big, think long term. If we could generate enough power to charge one of these for every american family. It would seriously decrease our carbon emissions and severe oil addiction. With the gradual decline of oil and the international increase in demand we need something new.
They claim 50 mpg once the 40 mile charge is used. I also recall reading that a charge could be very cheap. Like a buck or a buck fifty for the first 40 miles. The only bummer is the sticker price is a little on the ouch side.
__________________
"Im voting for Dukakis"
1984 E350 Quadravan, 6.9 IDI, 4x4, E4OD, ext. van : recent acquisition 1984 mitsubishi mighty max 4x4; a work in progress to run on homebrew if all goes well
BMW and Mercedes charge only a 1000 euro premium for their equivalent 3L diesel vs. 3L gas engines in Europe. If a diesel Volt got 60 mpg highway at $4.80/gal and gas 40 mpg @ $4.20/gal, that computes to a $0.025 saving/mile or $200/year under your scenario. If the price premium were a reasonable $1000 (for a 0.8L 2-3 cyl diesel it should be less!) payoff would be 5 years. Assuming the Euro-diesel precedent of $533/L, the prorated premium should be only $427; payoff in 2 years + 6 weeks.
Furthermore, if fuel goes to $10/gal (possible if Iran closes Strait of Hormuz in a war over nukes) I don't think "limited production" of cars like this will be the correct term.
I don't think diesel will be more than gas in the US forever; my wife's next car will be a BMW 335xd.
Charlie
He was pointing out that having a second option would be tremendously expensive, especially for a limited production car. Keep in mind this will not be a 700,000 units per year car like a Civic or a F-150 for that matter. It takes a bunch of development dollars to have a second engine come on line!
Nothing wrong with a highly efficient 3 cylinder diesel BTW.
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Too much junk/toys to mention, ever changing due to too getting bored too quickly. I need a 10 step program!
Want to call? I'm in the book. Want to argue....First explain the square root of negative one....lol
if the engine runs at one rpm and it does not drive the wheels I doubt that itll take 1 tenth the effort of a road engine. While im thinking about it. I doubt you would even need to develop an engine but could just use one off a genset.
__________________
"Im voting for Dukakis"
1984 E350 Quadravan, 6.9 IDI, 4x4, E4OD, ext. van : recent acquisition 1984 mitsubishi mighty max 4x4; a work in progress to run on homebrew if all goes well
__________________
"Im voting for Dukakis"
1984 E350 Quadravan, 6.9 IDI, 4x4, E4OD, ext. van : recent acquisition 1984 mitsubishi mighty max 4x4; a work in progress to run on homebrew if all goes well
This is a low-slung mild hybrid, which means that it’s equipped with an electric power-assist motor and doesn’t work on electric power alone. When added oomph is needed, the electric motor kicks in, providing faster acceleration. The S 300 mates the 2.2-liter BlueTec diesel four-cylinder to the new mild hybrid set up to peak out at 413 lb.-ft. of torque. The luxury sedan gets 43.6 mpg, a particularly impressive number considering the girth of the S-Class. Energy is stored in a small li-ion battery pack mounted underhood. It’s out late in 2009 or 2010 in Europe.
43 mpg from a FULL SIZE Benz. The S class is like a Town Car in size. Now tell me there couldn't be a F-150 with a small diesel and hybrid getting 35 mpg? And on a pickup it's a lot easier to mount some batteries under the truck bed not limiting general usage. In cars it eats up trunk space.
__________________
Too much junk/toys to mention, ever changing due to too getting bored too quickly. I need a 10 step program!
Want to call? I'm in the book. Want to argue....First explain the square root of negative one....lol
Last edited by roofeditor; 06-15-2008 at 09:21 AM.
Electric assist is an interesting idea. Basically the engine is a fuel meiser and lacks some get up and go. So they augment the acceleration with electric so you can have a spunky car and still get over 40mpg. Sounds like a trendy thing for the rich and famous of europe. They can say they are green and still drive around in a luxury sedan.
__________________
"Im voting for Dukakis"
1984 E350 Quadravan, 6.9 IDI, 4x4, E4OD, ext. van : recent acquisition 1984 mitsubishi mighty max 4x4; a work in progress to run on homebrew if all goes well
gas-electric or diesel-electric that is the question. The diesel is by far the most efficient and flexible engine to use. They already can burn any combustable gas or liquid. All you have to do is change the method of delivery. I saw an article in hot rod magazine that has the future of the gas engine looking much like a diesel anyway.(direct injection of fuel, no throttle plate, possibly even compression ignition of fuel) So why not just use a diesel style engine to start with and designe it to burn gasoline, diesel, alcohol, bio-diesel, kerosene, jet fuel, hydrogen, etc. Yes it can be done and probably already has been done if you look back into history.
Yes it can be done and probably already has been done if you look back into history.
I seen some military duece and a halfs that could run on at least 3 different fuel sources. Be difficult to get each to pass emissions but it looks like gm does it with flex fuel. Can run on alchohol or gas.
__________________
"Im voting for Dukakis"
1984 E350 Quadravan, 6.9 IDI, 4x4, E4OD, ext. van : recent acquisition 1984 mitsubishi mighty max 4x4; a work in progress to run on homebrew if all goes well
They said diesel Doc not me. Not sure why they would even make a gasser electric tbh when a diesel will have better efficiency unless the gasser is di.
What if, now its a big what if, but what if everyone caught a clue and figured out that suvs serve no purpose and bought an econimcal car like this. Then it wouldnt be limited production. I bet the demand for prius and insights has gone thru the roof.
The Volt may be limited in its first run to 100,000 cars, but cars like it will be the future anyways.
Wouldn't a diesel hybrid be more attractive in smaller work pickups and cargo vans? Guys won't feel guilty driving a diesel hybrid pickup like a car or commuting.
if the engine runs at one rpm and it does not drive the wheels I doubt that itll take 1 tenth the effort of a road engine. While im thinking about it. I doubt you would even need to develop an engine but could just use one off a genset.
That's not how it works.
In order to put energy into a battery, you have to raise the voltage above nominal. (14.4 V in a familiar lead-acid starting-lighting-ignition battery) When that energy is drawn out of the battery, the voltage is at or below nominal. (12.0 V in a S-L-I) That's a 17% efficiency loss if the battery achieves one electron out for each electron put in.
Consequently, the most efficient operating strategy is to match the engine's output to the road load, leaving the battery out of the loop whenever possible. Extended-range electric vehicles do not run the engine at a single rpm. It's only for gensets, and it's even being phased out there as inverters become more common.
__________________
-
Douglas Campbell, P.E.
1986 Isuzu P'up, 177,673.8 miles.
- Hella headlights (highly recommended)
- DOT C-2 back end (also recommended)
- R-12 air conditioner converted to R-406a. Saved ozone and money
- 4.1:1 final drive converted to 3.4:1. Quieter, better mileage but it's a good thing I live in the flat Midwest.
- 9/22/2007, age 21: Still running well when reluctantly sent away for reincarnation, due to body & frame rust.
Last edited by drcampbell; 06-18-2008 at 06:08 AM.
Electric assist is an interesting idea. Basically the engine is a fuel meiser and lacks some get up and go. So they augment the acceleration with electric so you can have a spunky car and still get over 40mpg. Sounds like a trendy thing for the rich and famous of europe. They can say they are green and still drive around in a luxury sedan.
DaddyT, you need one of these:
You do understand how Hybrids work right? You promote them on one hand than bash them and say they are for the rich on the other.
You recover energy while braking that would otherwise go to waste as heat to enhance the acceleration capabilities of an undersized engine.
The principle is simple and on-highway mileage still increases because a smaller engine under higher load producing the same horsepower as a larger engine with a lower load will consume less fuel. (don't correct my grammar)
Remember that Hybrids are not yet mainstream so manufacturers are still recovering developement costs by using them in their high-end big cars.
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