General DieselDiscussion about diesels in general. All brands are welcome, please refrain from brand wars. Discussions about types of diesel fuel also go here.
Info. from an aviation web sight. I have worked with aviation since 14 years old and drove diesel vehicles of various types since 16 yo. The info I would like to point out is in
the first para. and mentions the cutting of the fuel with "Gasoline". This fuel that is cut for wenterization is rare and should never be put in your diesel in other than extreme arctic conditions. Detroit Diesel recommends never to use this grade as an alternate fuel (JET-B). I have used kerosene as an emergincy fuel since my first vehicle, a 1983 Ford Ranger w/2.2L Mazda diesel. I have only heard of one person having trouble with sump fuel in there 7.3 and was probably due to getting the water and trash out of the bottom of the sump container witch is what the aircraft sump is for, catching water and sediment!
Aviation Jet Fuel Information
AVIATION TURBINE FUEL (JET FUEL)
CIVIL JET FUELS
Aviation turbine fuels are used for powering jet and turbo-prop engined aircraft and are not to be confused with Avgas. Outside former communist areas, there are currently two main grades of turbine fuel in use in civil commercial aviation : Jet A-1 and Jet A, both are kerosene type fuels. There is another grade of jet fuel, Jet B which is a wide cut kerosene (a blend of gasoline and kerosene) but it is rarely used except in very cold climates.
JET A-1
Jet A-1 is a kerosene grade of fuel suitable for most turbine engined aircraft. It is produced to a stringent internationally agreed standard, has a flash point above 38°C (100°F) and a freeze point maximum of -47°C. It is widely available outside the U.S.A. Jet A-1 meets the requirements of British specification DEF STAN 91-91 (Jet A-1), (formerly DERD 2494 (AVTUR)), ASTM specification D1655 (Jet A-1) and IATA Guidance Material (Kerosine Type), NATO Code F-35.
JET A
Jet A is a similar kerosene type of fuel, produced to an ASTM specification and normally only available in the U.S.A. It has the same flash point as Jet A-1 but a higher freeze point maximum (-40°C). It is supplied against the ASTM D1655 (Jet A) specification.
JET B
Jet B is a distillate covering the naphtha and kerosene fractions. It can be used as an alternative to Jet A-1 but because it is more difficult to handle (higher flammability), there is only significant demand in very cold climates where its better cold weather performance is important. In Canada it is supplied against the Canadian Specification CAN/CGSB 3.23
MILITARY
JP-4
JP-4 is the military equivalent of Jet B with the addition of corrosion inhibitor and anti-icing additives; it meets the requirements of the U.S. Military Specification MIL-DTL-5624U Grade JP-4. (As of Jan 5, 2004, JP-4 and 5 meet the same US Military Specification). JP-4 also meets the requirements of the British Specification DEF STAN 91-88 AVTAG/FSII (formerly DERD 2454),where FSII stands for Fuel Systems Icing Inhibitor. NATO Code F-40.
JP-5
JP-5 is a high flash point kerosene meeting the requirements of the U.S. Military Specification MIL-DTL-5624U Grade JP-5 (as of Jan 5, 2004, JP-4 and 5 meet the same US Military Specification). JP-5 also meets the requirements of the British Specification DEF STAN 91-86 AVCAT/FSII (formerly DERD 2452). NATO Code F-44.
JP-8
JP-8 is the military equivalent of Jet A-1 with the addition of corrosion inhibitor and anti-icing additives; it meets the requirements of the U.S. Military Specification MIL-DTL-83133E. JP-8 also meets the requirements of the British Specification DEF STAN 91-87 AVTUR/FSII (formerly DERD 2453). NATO Code F-34.
AVIATION FUEL ADDITIVES
Aviation fuel additives are compounds added to the fuel in very small quantities, usually measurable only in parts per million, to provide special or improved qualities. The quantity to be added and approval for its use in various grades of fuel is strictly controlled by the appropriate specifications.
A few additives in common use are as follows:
1. Anti-knock additives reduce the tendency of gasoline to detonate. Tetra-ethyl lead (TEL) is the only approved anti-knock additive for aviation use and has been used in motor and aviation gasolines since the early 1930s.
2. Anti-oxidants prevent the formation of gum deposits on fuel system components caused by oxidation of the fuel in storage and also inhibit the formation of peroxide compounds in certain jet fuels.
3. Static dissipater additives reduce the hazardous effects of static electricity generated by movement of fuel through modern high flow-rate fuel transfer systems. Static dissipater additives do not reduce the need for `bonding' to ensure electrical continuity between metal components (e.g. aircraft and fuelling equipment) nor do they influence hazards from lightning strikes.
4. Corrosion inhibitors protect ferrous metals in fuel handling systems, such as pipelines and fuel storage tanks, from corrosion. Some corrosion inhibitors also improve the lubricating properties (lubricity) of certain jet fuels.
5. Fuel System Icing Inhibitors (Anti-icing additives) reduce the freezing point of water precipitated from jet fuels due to cooling at high altitudes and prevent the formation of ice crystals which restrict the flow of fuel to the engine. This type of additive does not affect the freezing point of the fuel itself. Anti-icing additives can also provide some protection against microbiological growth in jet fuel.
6. Metal de-activators suppress the catalytic effect which some metals, particularly copper, have on fuel oxidation.
7. Biocide additives are sometimes used to combat microbiological growths in jet fuel, often by direct addition to aircraft tanks; as indicated above some anti-icing additives appear to possess biocidal properties.
8. Thermal Stability Improver additives are sometimes used in military JP-8 fuel, to produce a grade referred to as JP-8+100, to inhibit deposit formation in the high temperature areas of the aircraft fuel system.
POWER BOOSTING FLUIDS
It used to be commonplace for large piston engines to require special fluids to increase their take-off power. Similar injection systems are also incorporated in some turbo-jet and turbo-prop engines. The power increase is achieved by cooling the air consumed, to raise its density and thereby increase the weight of air available for combustion. This effect can be obtained by using water alone but it is usual to inject a mixture of methanol and water to produce a greater degree of evaporative cooling and also to provide additional fuel energy.
For piston engines, methanol/water mixtures are used and these may have 1 percent of a corrosion inhibiting oil added. The injection system may be used to compensate for the power lost when operating under high temperature and/or high altitude conditions (i.e. with low air densities) or to obtain increased take-off power under normal atmospheric conditions, by permitting higher boost pressure for a short period.
Both water alone and methanol/water mixtures are used in gas turbine engines, principally to restore the take-off power (or thrust) lost when operating under low air density conditions. Use of a corrosion inhibitor in power boost fluids supplied for these engines is not permitted.
The methanol and water used must be of very high quality to avoid formation of engine deposits. The water must be either demineralised or distilled and the only adulterant permitted in the methanol is up to 0.5 per cent of pyridine if required by local regulations as a de-naturant. In the past there were several different grades of water/methanol mixtures, e.g. 45/55/0 for turbine engines, 50/50/0 for piston engines (this was also available with 1% corrosion inhibiting oil and was designated 50/50/1) and 60/40/0, however, with decreasing demand Shell now only supplies 45/55/0. The table shows the principal characteristics of Shell demineralised water and of the commonly used methanol/water blend.
Version 3.3.2
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I too worked in GSE with a major airline. This was after extensive experience with commercial trucking/delivery organizations. Unless the airline equipment was designed for the low lubricity Jet A fuel, we experienced premature failures with injectors and high pressure fuel pumps when compared to failure rates in commercial (#2 diesel fueled) operations. Many of our Cummins powered deicer trucks were spec'd for use with Jet A to avoid those problems. I would also recommend using a supplemental lubricity additive if you have access to Jet A.
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Early 99 F250 PSD (XLE4) XLT, Extended Cab, Short Bed, 4X2, BTS Trans/TC, 3.73 Limited Slip, Transfer Flow 48 Gal. Mid-Ship Tank
Western WA - Member since August 2001
JP-5 is a military grade turbine fuel with added Aromatic Hydrocarbons and other nasties designed to raise the flash point above that of standard Jet-A.
I would not use anything above Jet-A in my diesel rigs. We used to pump right into the running tanks of our fuel trucks at the airport and never had an issue.
I also used to run 100LL (shhhhh!) in my '68 Cadillac. At 10.5 Comp. ratio, that was one happy caddy- plus sweet ethyl's cushion kept the heads in shape.
That was, way back, then- I am a bit older and wiser now.
Be careful using too much marvel mystery oil in your fuel tank. Last time I checked it had a red dye and that is one of the same colors that they use for off road diesel. If you get pulled over and they stick your tanks, you might not like the fine that mystery oil might come with. I used to use it and it works great, but my brother has been stopped just to get his tank sticked more than once in the past five years. Of course his truck looks like a work truck. Believe me, you do not want a fine or to give the stick police any lip. They can be very harsh. Nothing like waiting on the side of the road for a fuel truck to come and pump your fuel out of your fuel tanks. Then they give you a bill for the pumping and fuel disposal.
BTW, My truck loves JetA in the winter.
-=Maxtord=-
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2000 F-250SD SRW Crew Cab w/h Flatbed, 3.73 LS, Auto, TS 6 Pos Chip, ITP Pre-Pump, Homemade Regulated Return, Electric Fuel Pressure gauge, Trans Temp Gauge, Wicked Wheel, CCV Mod, Bilstein Shocks, Centramatic Wheel Balancers (Love'Em), PML Rear Diff Cover, Custom Massive K&N Intake With Outerwear, Cold A/C heater valve Mod, 203º T-stat, 3.5in DP into 4in Walker BTM and AreoTurbine combo Exhaust Dumped Before The back Tires, Frantz Bypass filter on tranny, Triple Disc Torque Converter, Shift kit, Luberfiner 500 Bypass Oil Filter System, Harpooned, and 10in Sub.
I am trying to increase the MPG on my 1995 Chevy T-Diesel 6.5 ltr. Is there a kit for this? Also, I would like to replace the leaking fuel pump on my 1984 Mazda B-2200 Diesel PU--Where can I find the fuel pump (new/rebuilt/used?) & installation manual. Thanks.
Last edited by Trucker Pat; 10-30-2009 at 04:59 PM.
Reason: new material
It started in 2005, then jumped to 2008, and now has jumped to 2010. Nothing wrong with that as long as 2008-up guys with DPF exhaust components realize the rules have changed about sufphur in fuel.
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My Sierra Blanca in the sig pic was a great pickup for 11.5 years. I sold it last year. Replacement is a 2012 F-150 EcoBoost SuperCrew Lariat.
I've worked in aviation for some time and it is pretty common for the Diesel owners in this industry to supplement their fuel with Jet A. In the 1970's I worked in the Canadian Arctic in the aviation division of an oil company. Our equipment all burned the same fuel, Hercs, 727s, choppers, generators, the rigs, furnaces, trucks and cats. Everything was fueled from the same tank. I've never heard of a diesel being damaged by jet fuel. However I can see there is a difference in that jet fuel isn't as oily so if I get a bunch of free jet fuel then a few bucks for 2 cycle treatment is a reasonable investment.
I don't think we should ever expect a straight answer from Chevron or any other oil company as they are producing a product to a spec and are responsible to do nothing else but that. For them to recommend that one product specification is good in an other application would be assuming liability for the misuse of the product.
I ran over 1000 gallons of Jet A in my 7.3 over almost 10 years with no oil additives and zero problems. Truck had near 200k miles on it with the original fuel system and injectors, Hell, original everything.
I've been a GSE mechanic for about 4 1/2 years now, and run Jet-A almost exclusively in my 7.3l IDI (about 80% of the time.) Between the daily sumps of the trucks & fuel farm and any maintenance/filter changes there's more available than I could use if I had 3 trucks. As has been noted already, you see a drop in fuel mileage. I went from about 17mpg on diesel to 12 on Jet-A. Idle RPM is about 50-75 lower than with diesel, and the lower viscosity of Jet-A results in more cranking for hot starts. I usually dump a full 32oz bottle of Power Service in with every tank, it helps with the lubricity but does nothing for the viscosity. When I filled up today I added 1qt 15W40 to my tank to see if that increased the viscosity, but it doesn't seem to have any significant effect.
Unless you're using fuel from a defueled aircraft that had Prist injected, you don't have to worry about Prist. On our trucks at least, Prist is stored in a separate container and is only injected when the pilot or airline requires it, at a ratio of 11-13oz Prist/100 gallons Jet-A (1:1000 ratio.)
Lastly, when your tank gets sticked they're not looking for only a red color, it's an actual litmus test in which the stick will change color or otherwise indicate the presence of the off-road dye. ATF and MMO won't cause a reaction. Of course, depending on your state's laws you may get in trouble for burning unapproved fuels.
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Phil
1988 F350, NA 7.3l, 5-speed, crew cab, 4.10 SRW. Miles: over 450K. Being taken off the road within the next month or so to deal with advanced rust. May just do a resto/rebuild to better my bodywork & paint skills.
An update on running Jet-A: I've been running it almost exclusively since maybe last October, but have since learned that when the temps start getting much over 70, my injector pump doesn't like the lower viscosity. It runs kinda crappy in the heat and takes longer to start when I'm running 50% diesel, so I'm going to try 75% diesel to see if it's better. In the cold weather Jet-A is great, I've tried adding a couple quarts of engine oil to the tank to increase viscosity when running 50% Jet-A but it doesn't seem to help much and the exhaust smells bad. At least in Maine we have more days below 70 than above, so I'll still be ahead at the end of the year LOL
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Phil
1988 F350, NA 7.3l, 5-speed, crew cab, 4.10 SRW. Miles: over 450K. Being taken off the road within the next month or so to deal with advanced rust. May just do a resto/rebuild to better my bodywork & paint skills.
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