General DieselDiscussion about diesels in general. All brands are welcome, please refrain from brand wars. Discussions about types of diesel fuel also go here.
I don't think there are any V-8 diesels in production for over the road truck use. The last of the ones produced were the Mack and Detroit V-8. Cummins had a V-8 in the late 70s or early 80s. Cat had a small V-8. The Inline 6 is more reliable, more power, and less moving parts. The inline 6s are sleaved to make rebuilding more cost effective. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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-2002,Dodge, CTD, Blood Red, SLT, Shortbed Quadcab, 4x4, 3/4 Ton, 5spd., 3'in Lift, Dual 5'in Stacks, AFE Stage I with Torque Tube, Autometer Z-series (Boost, Pryo, Fuel), Dr P. Predator Fuel Box (stage 1), Dr. P. Stage IV injectors, FASS II, 315's on 16x9.75 Centerlines, 3.55 Gears, Nerf Bars, Rhinoliner, Cobra C.B., Wilson Antenna, Mudflaps Custom Hangers, Toolbox, Alpine, DVD Player, 20mpg+, 15+ Towing
-1995, E-350, Powerstroke, 25 passenger, El Dorado (Church Bus) My Pictures
Truck Dyno'd 8/6/05 "374hp/915fttq"
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"SEABEES, WE BUILD, WE FIGHT!"
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"The only problem with the 6L is that it doesn't make any torque below 2000 RPM.
So you're saying the 6.0 makes ZERO torque below 2000 rpms? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]
For those that aren't familiar with ag/construction equipment, the engines need to be bulletproof, high torque, have good fuel economy and be nearly maintenance free.
Lets check how the 6L does. It certainly isn't bullet proof. It isn't a high torque engine. It is a high reving engine. It doesn't have good fuel economy and it requires a lot of maintenance. I wouldn't want a 6L in my tractor. I don't think it would work in a field tractor at all and that is why I don't think it is used in them. The 466 is used in some construction and ag equipment. The only industrial application I know of for a T444E is street sweepers and I know of customers who complain about them.
Let's see the 6.0 is not bullet proof by your account. It isn't a high torque engine? 570 ftlbs isn't enough torque for ya? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]
Again you don't think but you don't know. Until someone puts it in a tractor we will never know.
And I know of people who complain about everything, just take a look at this board! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]
Ha ! Th 5.9 is used in equipment up to and over 200 HP. You need to take a closer look at modern tractors. They are very high performance machines. Cummins practically owns a lot of the market with the 5.9. It has proven to be a very tough, versatile engine.
Wow over 200HP and that's a high performance machine! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img]
A diesel engine in a pickup truck has a holiday compared to a tractor. The duty cycle in a tractor is the highest of almost any application other than power generation. There is no ram air effect to assist with the cooling. The engine is always operating at high boost pressures. And they operate at fixed speeds (2000RPM) for thousands and thousands of hours.
So what is the boost at 2000 rpms on those 200HP high performance machines?
re Cummins sucking the hind tit... I don't know what your metric is, but mine doesn't involve drag racing and making smoke. When I buy a $45,000 truck, I want an engine that will pull for 250,000 miles without any problems. That is priority #1. My truck can't be in the shop. I don't have time to deal with exhaust backpressure valves and twin turbos and crap like that. It might be fine for a "diesel enthusiast" to spend time on that sort of stuff, but I can't.
And you don't think the 6.0 owners do? Why do you think the folks that got bad one's are so pissed off! I know dang well if I got a bad apple I'd be in Fords ear. So far I've been very fortunate. My truck does exactly what I need it to do.
It has to start and run at full performance day in and day out for a long, long time.
I really don't care if one engine is 10 HP less than another. All these engines will pull my loads at 65MPH, but which one is going to do it the easiest and last the longest doing it. From what I can tell of the 2005 engines, that engine is the Cummins.
So the 05 engines have enough miles on them already to make that conclusion? I think I'll wait and see on that one!
I think that Ford is kind of getting caught up in the performance diesel market niche. All you have to do is look on these boards and see how many people are interested in drag racing their diesels to see what I mean. Ford is catering to that. But that kind of power doesn't work well for the RVers and the work truck guys like me.
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I tell ya right now that the kind of power the 6.0 makes does work for the RVers and the work truck guys. How much time does an RVer spend going from 0-60? Probably not much. Where it counts is while they are at cruisin speed where the 6.0 shines. How many folks do you know that try and drag race with a 5th wheel trailer? Probably not many. So while folks complain about the low end torque of the 6.0, it still has more than enough to get the load rollin.
Also, as some of you know, the 6.6L Duramax is a V8, but it's workhorse big brother is an I6, the 7.8L Duramax. The 6.6 is used in 2500HD-5500 and the 7.8 in 6500-7500 (I think) models.
A lot of this stuff is basic Manufacturing Engineering-101. Especially
the chafed wire harnesses. Yet the Big-3 often repeat the same mistakes
with each new model, engine, tranny, etc. They have to spend several
years relearning and correcting these problems in each new model, engine,
tranny, etc. It is as if they brought in a new batch of engineers that
hafta learn again from scratch.
Part of it, I'm sure, is cost cutting by the bean counters... They're
under pressure to keep the costs down. They squeeze their suppliers and
thus we see a lot of problems with the bolt-on sensors, turbos, EGRs,
pumps, etc. And they cheapen things like the CAC, intercooler, etc.
Then they find out that these things can't take it in the real world,
so they may get upgraded in subsequent model years. These, and other
reasons, are why you never want to be a guinea pig by buying a new
model the first year it is out. My rule of thumb is to wait three
years to let Ford get bugs ironed out. But in the case of the 6.0L
three years is too short. I don't think Ford has any incentive to do
a good job on the 6.0L engine since its life span was limited to
four years from the git-go... Thus they're just "muddling through"
the four years of the 6.0-L and will hopefully do better on the 6.4-L.
LOL! Before you imply that the 6.0 is actully more reliable than the 5.9, check out this thread. Present day vs. a thread from TDR in 01. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbt...amp;PHPSESSID=
LOL! Before you imply that the 6.0 is actully more reliable than the 5.9, check out this thread. Present day vs. a thread from TDR in 01. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbt...amp;PHPSESSID=
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No where did he say the 6.0 was more reliable. He was just stating that your precious cummins has problems too! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/vomit.gif[/img]
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Before you get to wound up on the Cummins reliability you ought to check out these two threads. Some serious problems my friends.
LOL! Before you imply that the 6.0 is actully more reliable than the 5.9, check out this thread. Present day vs. a thread from TDR in 01. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbt...amp;PHPSESSID=
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No where did he say the 6.0 was more reliable. He was just stating that your precious cummins has problems too! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/vomit.gif[/img]
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No kidding? I don't think I would refer to the problems as "serious" though. Just my opinion. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/phoney.gif[/img]
"The only problem with the 6L is that it doesn't make any torque below 2000 RPM.
So you're saying the 6.0 makes ZERO torque below 2000 rpms?
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The 6L has a declining torque curve below 2000 rpms. If it can't hold a load at 2000, the engine will just stall. Ag engines typically have torque rise, meaning that the torque increases as RPMs fall, until they hit peak torque at 1400 or 1600 RPM.
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For those that aren't familiar with ag/construction equipment, the engines need to be bulletproof, high torque, have good fuel economy and be nearly maintenance free.
Lets check how the 6L does. It certainly isn't bullet proof. It isn't a high torque engine. It is a high reving engine. It doesn't have good fuel economy and it requires a lot of maintenance. I wouldn't want a 6L in my tractor. I don't think it would work in a field tractor at all and that is why I don't think it is used in them. The 466 is used in some construction and ag equipment. The only industrial application I know of for a T444E is street sweepers and I know of customers who complain about them.
Let's see the 6.0 is not bullet proof by your account. It isn't a high torque engine? 570 ftlbs isn't enough torque for ya?
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ISBes put out 660 and they have a flat torque curve. The 6L makes 570 at 2000 RPM, but drops off dramatically below that.
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Again you don't think but you don't know. Until someone puts it in a tractor we will never know.
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No, I do know. There is a reason the 6L isn't used in any tractors and this because it would be a terrible tractor engine.
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Ha ! Th 5.9 is used in equipment up to and over 200 HP. You need to take a closer look at modern tractors. They are very high performance machines. Cummins practically owns a lot of the market with the 5.9. It has proven to be a very tough, versatile engine.
Wow over 200HP and that's a high performance machine!
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It is from 6L when it runs for 8 or 10,000 hours without any issues. You just wouldn't understand unless you've run ag equipment. That isn't 200 HP every now and then like in a pickup truck. That is 200HP all the time.
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A diesel engine in a pickup truck has a holiday compared to a tractor. The duty cycle in a tractor is the highest of almost any application other than power generation. There is no ram air effect to assist with the cooling. The engine is always operating at high boost pressures. And they operate at fixed speeds (2000RPM) for thousands and thousands of hours.
So what is the boost at 2000 rpms on those 200HP high performance machines?
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Depends on the application, but usually 15 pounds. Again not once in a while, but all the time. Big difference.
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re Cummins sucking the hind tit... I don't know what your metric is, but mine doesn't involve drag racing and making smoke. When I buy a $45,000 truck, I want an engine that will pull for 250,000 miles without any problems. That is priority #1. My truck can't be in the shop. I don't have time to deal with exhaust backpressure valves and twin turbos and crap like that. It might be fine for a "diesel enthusiast" to spend time on that sort of stuff, but I can't.
And you don't think the 6.0 owners do? Why do you think the folks that got bad one's are so pissed off!
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My point exactly. Work people bought these trucks to work and we don't have time to learn about EGR work arounds and all that stuff. We want to buy it and go. That is the way the Cummins is. Its proven.
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I know dang well if I got a bad apple I'd be in Fords ear. So far I've been very fortunate. My truck does exactly what I need it to do.
It has to start and run at full performance day in and day out for a long, long time.
I really don't care if one engine is 10 HP less than another. All these engines will pull my loads at 65MPH, but which one is going to do it the easiest and last the longest doing it. From what I can tell of the 2005 engines, that engine is the Cummins.
So the 05 engines have enough miles on them already to make that conclusion? I think I'll wait and see on that one!
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From what I've seen and heard, yeah, I'll make that conclusion. The 05 Cummins is basically the same old dependable, versatile engine it always has been with a different fuel injection system on it since 03. The 6L is a totally different engine in 03. And it has issues. I don't think anyone can deny that.
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I think that Ford is kind of getting caught up in the performance diesel market niche. All you have to do is look on these boards and see how many people are interested in drag racing their diesels to see what I mean. Ford is catering to that. But that kind of power doesn't work well for the RVers and the work truck guys like me.
I tell ya right now that the kind of power the 6.0 makes does work for the RVers and the work truck guys. How much time does an RVer spend going from 0-60? Probably not much. Where it counts is while they are at cruisin speed where the 6.0 shines. How many folks do you know that try and drag race with a 5th wheel trailer? Probably not many. So while folks complain about the low end torque of the 6.0, it still has more than enough to get the load rollin.
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Except that the darn thing is always downshifting out of OD when pulling trailers. Hit a hill, RPMs fall a bit and it downshifts and revs its brains out. I figure a Cummins is good for 3-400,000 miles of hard pulling. Do you think a 6L is going to last 3-400,000 miles reving at 3200 RPM ?
I guess one of the things that I really don't understand about the 6L is how peak torque is at 2000 RPM when you have to run 70MPH to hit it with the 6speed in OD. Who in their right mind builds a truck that cruises UNDER peak torque, especially when the torque falls off as fast as the 6L does at low revs ?
Mack, also a 5.9 is used in marine applications where is is making 300 HP constantly for hours on end. The 6.0 is a nice PU engine (own 2 and had 3) but if it was marineized and ran at full or 90% power for 20 hours at a clip it (I'm pretty sure) would last about one clip.
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Too much junk/toys to mention, ever changing due to too getting bored too quickly. I need a 10 step program!
Want to call? I'm in the book. Want to argue....First explain the square root of negative one....lol
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Mack, also a 5.9 is used in marine applications where is is making 300 HP constantly for hours on end. The 6.0 is a nice PU engine (own 2 and had 3) but if it was marineized and ran at full or 90% power for 20 hours at a clip it (I'm pretty sure) would last about one clip.
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The commercial medium truck 5.9 is rated at 275HP and 660 pounds of torque @1600
The marine version is rated up to 380HP and (are you ready) 875 pounds of torque @2000. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img] They don't last long at 100% power but go for ever at 75% power which is still 285HP. The 6.0 I don't think can compete with this? well not for long at that power continuous.
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Too much junk/toys to mention, ever changing due to too getting bored too quickly. I need a 10 step program!
Want to call? I'm in the book. Want to argue....First explain the square root of negative one....lol
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Mack, also a 5.9 is used in marine applications where is is making 300 HP constantly for hours on end. The 6.0 is a nice PU engine (own 2 and had 3) but if it was marineized and ran at full or 90% power for 20 hours at a clip it (I'm pretty sure) would last about one clip.
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Wasn't there a marine version of the 6.5? If that sucker would last in marine application I'd bet the 6.0 would also. Was the 7.3 ever used in marine application?
My buddy blew his Cummins pulling a measly 9K on level ground. The
engine was toast and it was almost 3 months before Dodge got it
back to him. Needless to say he was pi**ed! I would call that a
setious problem for a truck with 20K on the odometer. He thought
so to. I guess it can happen to anyone. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
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1997 F250 HD PSD 4x4 OR Auto 3.55LS CC SRW SWB 265x75x16 Michelin LTX DP 211K mi.; Ford AIC; Fuel milege; 20.3 mpg @ 70 mph. 12.5 mpg pulling my boat,12.5K, along two lane rural roads. A number of mods ordered from DaleI. Nice round replacement DP. FS2500 by-pass oil filter installed. Fumoto drain valve. Tymar Intake installed! HX mod from Tymar installed. TFI fillneck kits installed. Auto-Rx cleaner in engine & transmission done. Switched from Rotella dino to Rotella synthetic. Amsoil 5W-30 Series 3000 installed!
FS-2500 Bypass filter installed.
Velvet rides installed. Joe Servo IDM mod installed. Rear air lift springs.
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My buddy blew his Cummins pulling a measly 9K on level ground. The
engine was toast and it was almost 3 months before Dodge got it
back to him. Needless to say he was pi**ed! I would call that a
setious problem for a truck with 20K on the odometer. He thought
so to. I guess it can happen to anyone. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
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I'm not saying they can't blow up. I bet there has been a whole bunch of them that have for sure. What I'm saying is that to lable the 5.9 engine as a whole as an engine that has serious problems is totally wrong. There's a ton of them out there in way more applications then anyone here would believe. They wouldn't have been put in so many things with a production run that has no end in sight if they "had serious problems". I could give an example of an engine with some serious problems if you'd like. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif[/img] When they have serious problems, they are not made very long. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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DANG! I should have put on my waders before stepping into THIS thread. Never read so much crap in my life. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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Waders ? I'm thinking a large boat [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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2002 F250 XLT S/C 4x4 long bed
5.4,Auto w/4.10 LS in Dark Shadow Grey
Lariat rims w/285/75 BF Goodrich TA KO's
and Western 8' poly pro plow
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