The relationship between the price of diesel and gasoline

[Going_Going_Gone]

Originally Posted by BuilderBob

I don't believe you are correct in believing that the cost of fuel or gasoline is tied to the cost of refining.
The cost of refining is about the same when the cost of gasoline was under $1.00. Yes it has changed, and it does add to the cost of a gallon.
What has changed is the cost of crude. The cost of crude is based on supply & demand.
If there was no demand, we would buy crude for pennys, if demand were higher, than the cost of crude would be $$$.

I'm no expert here, that's for sure. In the old days, diesel used to be a cheap byproduct of refining crude into gasoline--kinda like sawdust was to lumber milling. However, diesel has more therms of energy stored in it than gasoline and can be "cracked" into lighter distillates (gasoline) resulting in more gasoline output than diesel input. But, when you consider the cost of "botique blending" special fuels for areas like SoCal, Denver, Arizona, etc.; the production costs of these products should exceed that of low-Sulfur diesel, but it appears that corporate greed is a major factor in the pricing structure.

[navistar45]

i'am a firm believer ,that there is some major gougeing going on. regardless as to what it cost to make either gas or diesel, when one goes up, the other should pretty much go up as well. during the winter , the diesel price has always gone up some. now the price goes up basicly at any given time of the year. bear in mind, when oil prices rise, both gas and diesel prices should rise the same. why is it, i have seen gas not rise as much or sometimes not at all, while diesel will shoot up a dime to 15 cents in one day. these folks have figured out, diesel fuel is a cash cow. individual gas stations are useing this pratice, not all, but many . i have litterally seen many of the stations in my town, [all owned by one of two people] jack the fuel price up, as many as three times in one day! drive across town and the walmart, or the out of town owned quickie stop, hasnt raise their price more then a nickel, if at all! my solution is to not support these people, and seek out the better priced, fair dealing stations.

[roofeditor]

Originally Posted by Niner1190

Just some comments on your comments. Not trying to invalidate your opinion, because you make a lot of good points, just adding my personal 1/50 of a dollar.

Solar CAN be effective depending on the area.

I can do 17KW modules that plug together for $5.00 per AC (not DC) Watt. That's expensive BUT and this is a big BUT.

In Florida we get a Florida Power and Light/ State rebate of about 50% (actually more complicated than that) of the cost UP TOO $400,000, so if you install a $400,000 unit you basically get back $200,000 but it doesn't end there.

$200,000 rebate
$160,000 Federal tax CREDIT (not deduction)
80,000 per YEAR depreciation (read Tax deduction) for 5 years.

So cost of $400,000 - $200,000 credit = $200,000 - $160,000 TAX CREDIT = $40,000, now the 5 year depreciation is obviously $400,000 x 35% (tax rate)
$140,000. so after 5 years you have got back $200,000 + $160,000 + $140,000 or a grand total of $500,000 but you only paid $400,000!!!!!! sound good?

Now over 5 years we do make power. About $1800 a month or about $108,000 in power savings added to the $500,000.

This is not a pipe dream it's running right now, I am prohibited from putting up the web site because of TDS rules but PM me and I'll direct you to the site. Even invite you for a visit if you are in FL.

The life span is about 25 years for 95% of the power then it starts to taper off.



You mentioned coal being only good to make electrical power! well if we made all are electric power from clean coal that in itself would not be bad. However if you do a little research you can see that coal can be made into gas or diesel and that is exactly what Hitler ran WW-2 on 60 years ago. It still works fine and is even more efficient with modern day technology.

Nuclear can power all our electric eliminating oil imports! Nuclear can also make electric power that makes (separates) Hydrogen from water and that CAN run a car nicely.

We have the technology, do we have the will?

[Rick M]

As was mentioned above diesel is a commercial fuel so costs are passed along. As such more is charged for it because it is used to make money, my commercial phone line costs more, office electricity rate is higher. It is done because they can.

[Blue01F250]

I need to look into solar for my house.... start making biodiesel... and get a geothermal heat and air unit...

Then i'd be good!

[Niner1190]

Originally Posted by roofeditor

Solar CAN be effective depending on the area.

I can do 17KW modules that plug together for $5.00 per AC (not DC) Watt. That's expensive BUT and this is a big BUT.

In Florida we get a Florida Power and Light/ State rebate of about 50% (actually more complicated than that) of the cost UP TOO $400,000, so if you install a $400,000 unit you basically get back $200,000 but it doesn't end there.

$200,000 rebate
$160,000 Federal tax CREDIT (not deduction)
80,000 per YEAR depreciation (read Tax deduction) for 5 years.

So cost of $400,000 - $200,000 credit = $200,000 - $160,000 TAX CREDIT = $40,000, now the 5 year depreciation is obviously $400,000 x 35% (tax rate)
$140,000. so after 5 years you have got back $200,000 + $160,000 + $140,000 or a grand total of $500,000 but you only paid $400,000!!!!!! sound good?

Now over 5 years we do make power. About $1800 a month or about $108,000 in power savings added to the $500,000.

This is not a pipe dream it's running right now, I am prohibited from putting up the web site because of TDS rules but PM me and I'll direct you to the site. Even invite you for a visit if you are in FL.

The life span is about 25 years for 95% of the power then it starts to taper off.



You mentioned coal being only good to make electrical power! well if we made all are electric power from clean coal that in itself would not be bad. However if you do a little research you can see that coal can be made into gas or diesel and that is exactly what Hitler ran WW-2 on 60 years ago. It still works fine and is even more efficient with modern day technology.

Nuclear can power all our electric eliminating oil imports! Nuclear can also make electric power that makes (separates) Hydrogen from water and that CAN run a car nicely.

We have the technology, do we have the will?

wow, solar technology has come a long way in the last 7 years. When I looked into it for a company project in 2001 you barely made your money back by the time the cells were pretty much useless.

[eagleeye]

Hey guys,
In case any of you are close to Central Illinois, here is a link to an Energy Conference that the college I work at is hosting. I wish I could go but my wife is dragging me onto a cruise ship all next week.
Energy Innovation Conference 2008

[checkthisout]

Originally Posted by roofeditor

Regulate world wide sales? Oh well lets see, how would you plan to do that. If regulated to no buying oil on the spot in the NY exchange, I simply buy in the London exchange.

In all fairness I should disclose that I invested as an OWNER not LLC partner in 20 natural gas wells last year that trade on the spot market and some have also hit oil as well as gas. How this all happens is way more complicated than simply buying crude, refining it, and then selling it at the pump. it is at times sold on PAPER many times in one day well before actual delivery. The market right now has TOO much crude and not enough delivery and refining. However for some really odd reason lack of refining and delivery is driving the crude price at least 25% more than it really should be.

Think none of us have any control over this? If every person in the USA traded in his/her PU that is rarely if ever used as a real truck, and if every person traded in his/her Suburban/Expedition that is also rarely used for it's intended use, for a more reasonable MPG unit the bottom would fall out of the oil market.

Do the math. How many PU/SUVS getting 12 mpg are there? Replace them with something getting 25? or a VW TDI or new Honda getting 50?

Stupid bunch of morons in Detroit can't build a V-6 Diesel 6 speed auto F-150 that gets 30 MPG? WE Can't match VW or Honda?

Coal? We are the worlds Saudi Arabia!

Nuclear Power? We invented it!

Solar power? I'm running a 56 KW power plant on a business this second and installing a 17KW unit in my back yard shortly.

We CAN beat the oil companies at their own game but just chose not to because of APATHY.

Last fall I went to Europe (Spain, France, Italy, Germany) to look at solar power over there. Typically they are passing us quickly. Nuclear power, France is making 85% of theirs. And gas prices there are in the $7.00 a gallon range.

So when it hits $7.00 here and it costs $350 to fill up your F-350, think it might start to sink in that changes must be made starting as the basic user/buyer?

Rant off!

The next Presidents platform should focus solely on this issue.

Why give me back 1200 bucks of my own money when you can put people to work building nukes and put some people in detroit back to work developing the worlds most efficient cars, solar panels and wind turbines?

[checkthisout]

You mentioned coal being only good to make electrical power! well if we made all are electric power from clean coal that in itself would not be bad. However if you do a little research you can see that coal can be made into gas or diesel and that is exactly what Hitler ran WW-2 on 60 years ago. It still works fine and is even more efficient with modern day technology.

Instead of using coal as your heat source to cook the the coal, you could use nukes which would give you more gas or diesel per unit of coal.


We get the point Roof, but why does no one that is running for public office?

[KINGTUT]

I am really proud of this thread, not because I started it, but because how intellectually members here can discuss topics. We got some really smart folks here. Great stuff. I have thoroughly enjoyed it.

[Hook'em Horns!]

Originally Posted by roofeditor

Nuclear can power all our electric eliminating oil imports!

Power plants run on imported Oil? I thought it was Coal, Natural Gas and Nu Cle Ur (W).

[checkthisout]

Originally Posted by Hook'em Horns!

Power plants run on imported Oil? I thought it was Coal, Natural Gas and Nu Cle Ur (W).

By using the nuke to make hydrogen.

[roofeditor]

Originally Posted by Niner1190

wow, solar technology has come a long way in the last 7 years. When I looked into it for a company project in 2001 you barely made your money back by the time the cells were pretty much useless.

We have basically 2 types.

Type A is a thin film covered with very thin stainless steel, It works out to about $7 to $8 per watt but it's in a roll like peal and stick roofing, you roll it out, stick it down and 60 seconds later it's installed and you can WALK ON IT! AND 150 mil per hour winds can't blow it off. It makes less wattage than some of the others but it's simple and quite durable. The rolls are 16 inches wide by 14 feet long and the only limits are how much roof you have and how much money you have! They basically have jumpers on the ends and you connect them.

Type B is an array of highly polished concave mirrors that focus on a power bar receiver about 4 feet from THAT mirror. All the mirrors are in an array that is gimbaled with trackers that rotate north/south and east west to follow the sun. More expensive but way more efficient bringing the cost down to about $5 per AC watt. In that this has small motors that rotate the unit there is some possible maintenance here. This unit is for commercial roofs only or in the back yard of a home. The units are a 40 foot circle and each 40 foot circle makes 17KW in Florida. Arizona more.........Vermont less. If I put the peal and stick on the roof AND one array in the yard I'd be hitting about 27 KW total which is way more than the house could ever use.

We can back meter to the power company but the restrictions they put on this are quite complicated.

There are units that make over 10 watts per foot but they are costly.

The max commercial rebate is 200K the max home rebate is 20K.

[roofeditor]

Originally Posted by checkthisout

Instead of using coal as your heat source to cook the the coal, you could use nukes which would give you more gas or diesel per unit of coal.


We get the point Roof, but why does no one that is running for public office?

All presidents and all parties have ignored this at least for the past 20 years. I seriously doubt that any of the candidates have a clue on any of this.

Most economists agree that a dollar spent on imported oil is basically a dollar gone. However the general opinion is that a dollar spent here that stays here is recycled with supporting jobs and spending 4-5 times. This is so simple I just don't know why it's not being done.

I say apathy and many of us HERE that insist on burning 300 bucks of diesel or gas a week in a silly un-needed dually or Burb SUV are unwitting supporters of the apathy. I obviously exclude the guys/gals that REQUIRE a truck for REAL work, not going to Home Depot once a year to get the imaginary sheet of plywood.

The change begins at the top AND at the bottom!

[roofeditor]

Originally Posted by Hook'em Horns!

Power plants run on imported Oil? I thought it was Coal, Natural Gas and Nu Cle Ur (W).

Point being ALL should run on coal, or nuclear. Natural gas can run cars and trucks VERY well. Honda actually has a Civic that you plug into a unit called PHIL that compresses NG to liquid NG. Very nice unit, but has a range of only 250 miles and then you are stuck. If ya think about it if you have need for a second car that is basically a commuter doing less than 100 Miles a day this might be an excellent option. You are no going cross country in this because there are no NG stops along the way.

Oil is NOT infinite and as the supply wanes it will get very expensive.