'08 has a black box......Is this true? - Diesel Forum

rmd1960 · 01-30-2007, 04:50 PM

I read somewhere that the '08 has a black box that records if you modify your truck and/or if you drive it hard, and that you cannot erase it even if you put it back to stock. Anyone know if this is true? Is Big Brother...err I mean "Big Blue Oval" watching? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]

Tony_ONeil · 01-30-2007, 05:06 PM

heard the same thing, except i also heard that it has a wireless internet card to tattle when the hood was opened and how long...seems a little far fetched considering how much that would cost them

AR50 · 01-30-2007, 05:52 PM

This is copied from the manual

Service Data Recording
Service data recorders in your vehicle are capable of collecting and
storing diagnostic information about your vehicle. This potentially
includes information about the performance or status of various systems
and modules in the vehicle, such as engine, throttle, steering or brake
systems. In order to properly diagnose and service your vehicle, Ford
Motor Company, Ford of Canada, Ford Motor Company, S.A. de C.V. and
service and repair facilities may access vehicle diagnostic information
through a direct connection to your vehicle when diagnosing or servicing
your vehicle.
Event Data Recording
Other modules in your vehicle — event data recorders — are capable of
collecting and storing data during a crash or near crash event. The
recorded information may assist in the investigation of such an event.
The modules may record information about both the vehicle and the
occupants, potentially including information such as:
• how various systems in your vehicle were operating;
• whether or not the driver and passenger seatbelts were buckled;
• how far (if at all) the driver was depressing the accelerator and/or the
brake pedal;
• how fast the vehicle was traveling; and
• where the driver was positioning the steering wheel.
To access this information, special equipment must be directly connected
to the recording modules. Ford Motor Company, Ford of Canada and
Ford Motor Company, S.A. de C.V. do not access event data recorder
information without obtaining consent, unless pursuant to court order or
where required by law enforcement, other government authorities or
other third parties acting with lawful authority. Other parties may seek to
access the information independently of Ford Motor Company, Ford of
Canada and Ford Motor Company, S.A. de C.V.
2008 F-250/350/450/550 (f23)
Owners Guide (post-2002-fmt)
USA (fus)
Introduction
6

AdmRanger · 01-30-2007, 07:26 PM

What this means is that if you are involved in an accident, the info on that box could be used to *testify* against you!

For example, you're towing a trailer and are involved in an accident that isn't your fault in California. Defendent gets your data recorder info that shows you doing 60mph. Bzzzzt, you're busted for speeding (55mph is the limit in Cali w/trailer) and are now at least partially at fault.

This is bad for you if you aren't perfect, good for you if you are a victim. For example: you rear end a drunk (or some numbnut) going 30mph on the interstate at night b/c they don't have their lights on and you have a 16k lb 5th pushing you down the hill (so you can't stop on a dime) and you can't see them -- normally you'd be at fault but with this info the court might decide that you are not at fault or at least not 100 percent at fault.

Expect more and more of this in the future from all car/truck builders is my guess. It can provide them some defense in litigation too (think Audi's unintended acceleration fiasco).

smokyred · 01-30-2007, 07:58 PM

They say they don't obtain event data recordings without consent or where required by law.

But they don't say anything about needing consent to obtain data from the service data recorders. To me that means the new truck modders are gonna have to suck it up if they break their trucks and try to sneak it in under warranty.

Dave

560TURBO · 01-31-2007, 10:49 AM

I beleive this, because even in the tractor industry, such as CaseIH, the local dealer can bring up everything by just plugging it into his little computer. For example, when I was operating the MX240, I snubbed it going up an incline in the field while chisel plowing, it was at the end row, and I was just setting it back in (chisel plow)and had the throttle backedd off and snubbed it. Well it wasn't two days later, the tractor wouldn't start because of some sensor went haywire, well he brought up the whole history of the machine and low and behold the snub o meter came up on his screen. I couldn't believe it. So believe you me, this will also aid in any repairs that may help the mechanic fix or diagnose a problem from prior usage. It may also void warranty if machine wasn't running in accordance to manual per say.

sjprice · 01-31-2007, 11:05 AM

Hey, if this improves the process of legitimate warranties, cuts down on the hastles and arguments and overall helps keep the warranty repair costs down which will help keep the new truck costs down, I am all for it. The service module that is. As for the new government "little black boxes" time will tell if that one works out. However if it helps cut down of the stupid lawsuits from accidents, that might be a good thing as well. I can see a whole new industry coming along with computer reprogrammers that allow you to manipulate all the black boxes and what they say about you. Kind of like the pro athletes that buy clean urine samples to pass drug tests. You will be able to buy "the little old lady driving to church on Sunday" black box data for your super mod Super Duty.

searcyfarms · 01-31-2007, 11:43 AM

there is a black box and as with anything computer related there is a way to defeat it, its only as good as the guy that programmed it. I already know of a company that has been working on a hack to reset these boxes so rest assured for you folks that want to live on the edge there will be a way around it

i dont really care about a black box as I drive my truck withing the limits of its construction, i floor it, if it blows up its not my fault, ford should have designed it better, they can look at their black box all they want

its governored for speed and engine rpm etc.......

even the new 450s are governored slower then the 250s and 350s

anyway, i have driven fords all my life and had my foot in everyone of them, never blown one up, worked them to death and yes have had issues but none that i felt i was shortchanged on

i have had to have passionate discussions with certain issues, mainly on my 6.0 but after we all worked through it, fair was fair

i have some beefs but none that are earth shattering, my 6.0 is out of wty now and i will be paying all the bills on it when it breaks, i have never gotten rid of any ford i have owned before 200K miles and have been happy with them all - some more than others

anyway, i own a pontiac and have owned a couple dodges but ford is my staple

i wont be getting a 6.4 for a while but I jumped on the 6.0 in Jan 03 and have been discouraged at times but never disappointed

it has its quirks but so does every other vehicle i have ever owned if i think about it

jmoser · 01-31-2007, 11:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
heard the same thing, except i also heard that it has a wireless internet card to tattle when the hood was opened and how long...seems a little far fetched considering how much that would cost them

[/ QUOTE ]

Any GM vehicle with OnStar is capable of this exact thing. Not saying they use it that way but the capability is built in, not to mention the ability to locate your vehicle with the GPS function.

GM can and does use OnStar today to track scheduled maintenance and/or field diagnostics to aid in roadsise assistance/service.

California's 'OBD III' proposal included telemetry to transmit fault codes in real time. Don't think it's not coming.

Nice, huh?

teamroper60 · 01-31-2007, 11:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I read somewhere that the '08 has a black box that records if you modify your truck and/or if you drive it hard, and that you cannot erase it even if you put it back to stock. Anyone know if this is true? Is Big Brother...err I mean "Big Blue Oval" watching? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is supposed to be true. In fact, there was a post on this in the 6.0 forums because it apparently is also true for some of the 06's and all 07's. However, it is not a "blackbox" per se..... It is some code written into the PCM.

The "blackbox" that records data about speed, throttle input, etc.. has been in vehicles for several years now. It's nothing new. If you have anything built in the last 7-10 years, it's very likely you have one now....

bfeehan · 01-31-2007, 12:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
They say they don't obtain event data recordings without consent or where required by law.

But they don't say anything about needing consent to obtain data from the service data recorders. To me that means the new truck modders are gonna have to suck it up if they break their trucks and try to sneak it in under warranty.

Dave

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind that this is usually only used in serious or fatal crashes. This is because it is usually expensive to retrieve the data. But, yes the police will get a court order and subpoena Ford to pull the information off of the Event Data Recorder. This will tell your speed before and after the crash, wether you were wearing seatbelts and other data. Keep in mind that this is just another tool in the investigation. A Crash Investigator will factor in wether you were towing a trailer and other conditions like the road condtions. The EVD will not solely be used to "hang you" but it can be used for or against you.

**KINGTUT** · 01-31-2007, 12:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I read somewhere that the '08 has a black box that records if you modify your truck and/or if you drive it hard, and that you cannot erase it even if you put it back to stock. Anyone know if this is true? Is Big Brother...err I mean "Big Blue Oval" watching? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is supposed to be true. In fact, there was a post on this in the 6.0 forums because it apparently is also true for some of the 06's and all 07's. However, it is not a "blackbox" per se..... It is some code written into the PCM.

The "blackbox" that records data about speed, throttle input, etc.. has been in vehicles for several years now. It's nothing new. If you have anything built in the last 7-10 years, it's very likely you have one now....

[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct many, many vehicles have had this technology in them for years. However, it is my understanding that there has been some "added" features in the new Ford that are in place solely to detect tampering and malfunctions in the emissions systems and also to detect tampering or changing the original programming. I have read it at two very reliable sources, but for the life of me I can't remember. The sources gave a very detailed explanation of the logic that was being used in the PCM and how it was writing certain activities into a separate partition that is generally not accessed during the conventional aftermarket tuning process. If accessed another "code" if you will is permanently written and stored so that any tampering activities can be discovered. It went further to state that this stored data can be uploaded from the dealer directly to Ford engineers who can further interpret what has occurred if necessary. Don't shoot the messenger, but I believe this to be true. And for the record, Ford is not the only manufacturer using this technology. Ford has determined that aftermarket programming is more widely used in their diesel products than in their other vehicles. Although you can buy a chip for a Ford 500 if you want one. This is here to stay and will probably get more and more sophisticated and track more information as time goes on. I have watched my Honda dealer download my PCM and saw the historical data of speed, rpm's, ect before my own eyes.

frobozz · 01-31-2007, 12:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]

This is correct many, many vehicles have had this technology in them for years. However, it is my understanding that there has been some "added" features in the new Ford that are in place solely to detect tampering and malfunctions in the emissions systems and also to detect tampering or changing the original programming. I have read it at two very reliable sources, but for the life of me I can't remember. The sources gave a very detailed explanation of the logic that was being used in the PCM and how it was writing certain activities into a separate partition that is generally not accessed during the conventional aftermarket tuning process. If accessed another "code" if you will is permanently written and stored so that any tampering activities can be discovered. It went further to state that this stored data can be uploaded from the dealer directly to Ford engineers who can further interpret what has occurred if necessary. Don't shoot the messenger, but I believe this to be true. And for the record, Ford is not the only manufacturer using this technology. Ford has determined that aftermarket programming is more widely used in their diesel products than in their other vehicles. Although you can buy a chip for a Ford 500 if you want one. This is here to stay and will probably get more and more sophisticated and track more information as time goes on. I have watched my Honda dealer download my PCM and saw the historical data of speed, rpm's, ect before my own eyes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are two totally separate things... the "black box" everyone thinks of for recording data about crashes and things, and what the PCM does to detect modification.

There's nothing sneaky or black-boxy about Ford's engine computer trying to detect warranty fraud, and trying to do so in a way that can't itself be defrauded. Ford has said for years not to mess with their engine programming, and yet people do, and a very large number of those people go to great lengths to hide that fact from Ford. I know, in some cases they are trying to hide it because Ford will illegitimately use that fact to deny some unrelated warranty claim. But the fact remains that Ford has every right to know what you've done to your truck, if you're expecting them to pay for repairs.

And as someone else pointed out, if this keeps up, eventually the EPA is going to mandate the manufacturers to make it impossible to change things, and to prove that they have done so, and if someone thwarts all that, the EPA will be holding the manufacturers responsible (like they did with the consent decree on Class 8 engines a few years back.) So Ford has even more reason to make it completely impossible to modify these things without Ford knowing about it.

Duncan

**KINGTUT** · 01-31-2007, 01:53 PM

Duncan, I agree with what you have said. However, if they ever attempt to integrate GPS technology in vehicles, I would have to draw the line. Not saying it is going to happen, but it would not surprise me. That is going too far. It is one thing to know how fast I am driving vs. where I am going. Technology is a great thing, but it can get quite intrusive, quickly. It would be very easy to integrate the NAV systems on vehicles to a recording mechanism. In fact I have "heard" that some border state rental car companies already use this kind of technology in some vehicles.

teamroper60 · 01-31-2007, 03:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Duncan, I agree with what you have said. However, if they ever attempt to integrate GPS technology in vehicles, I would have to draw the line. Not saying it is going to happen, but it would not surprise me. That is going too far. It is one thing to know how fast I am driving vs. where I am going. Technology is a great thing, but it can get quite intrusive, quickly. It would be very easy to integrate the NAV systems on vehicles to a recording mechanism. In fact I have "heard" that some border state rental car companies already use this kind of technology in some vehicles.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hig,

The technology to "track" a vehicle's movements has been around for quite a while. Does the name "Lojack" (sp?) mean anything to you?? That company has been around for probably 20 years now. Furthermore, I think "OnStar" can do this now as well and as you mentioned, a lot of rental car agencies have it too. In police agencies, this technology is used frequently to keep track of police officers (Under the guise of "officer safety". It does work for that, but some micro-managing brass will also use it for other, less honorable reasons too). The stuff the police agencies use can tell you direction of travel and to a certain extent speed, though not down to the specific mph. I suspect the higher end stuff could track the mph much more closely.

I still feel folks are getting the "blackbox" confused though... The "blackbox" has been in cars for probably 10 years now, but the data it's collecting is not what will tell Ford that you have modded your engine. That data is collected and stored in the PCM....