6.4L Power Stroke Engine and DrivetrainDiscussion of the 6.4L Power Stroke diesel engine and drivetrain in the 2008-Up Super Duty trucks. No gas engine discussion allowed except on transmissions and drivetrain that pertain to all models. Please confine discussion of topics in this forum to those items that are specific to the 6.4L Power Stroke engine.
Diesel engines have been around for many decades and are known to run for many hundreds of thousands of miles. It's one of the reasons we pay $6k+ for the upgrade. It strikes me as implausible that contaminated fuel is a new issue.
Here is the thing -
It is true that Diesel engines have been around for many decades. It is also true that they were largely unchanged during all those decades. This lasted up until the year 2000 or so after which point diesel engines were subjected to emissions regulations.
With emissions regulation diesel engines went through such a drastic change in technology that they are barely comparable to their predecessors.
- Simple mechanical fuel injection distributor pumps were replaced by high pressure (26,000PSI+) fuel pumps feeding common fuel rails and electronically controled fuel injectors.
- Natural aspiration or simple single turbochargers were replaced with multiple turbo charger configurations and servo controlled variable geometry vanes in the turbos.
- Exhaust systems that were previously wide open or had a simple catalyst now have diesel particulate filters that trap soot, but require periodic high temperature regeneration to clear out the accumulated soot.
- Exhaust gas recirculation systems were added to control production of oxides of nitrogen, and these EGR systems present another seto of issues and complexity.
Effectively today's diesel engines are only around 10 years old in terms of large scale use, and the technology is still being developed and refined. Since the emissions regulations affect all manufacturers, all brands have similar issues in these early years of the new technology.
Some people will point out that Dodge with it's Cummins engines haven't had the same issues to date, however this is a matter of them being able to just barely meet the early stages of emissions requirements without having to add all the new components. Emissions regulations are still tightening so they will face the same issues soon enough. If anything the other brands have a bit of a head start and should have the issues with the new technology resolved soon.
The key commonality with the new diesels is that they do not tollerate all short trip use and they do not tollerate neglected maintenance. If you have a 2.5 mile commute, *DO NOT* use a diesel truck for the commute. If you have heavy weekend towing needs your choice is then to either get a gas truck that can handle the towing (they're better at it these days), or get a cheap car for commuting.
As for Ford not being upfront with their claimed findings, that is troubling. I would be consulting an atty if I were you if this is going to cost you any real money and the dealer has done all scheduled maintenance. Many of us with Ford diesels are approaching the end of our ESP warranties and considering new trucks. We follow these forums and such reports of Ford not standing behind their product and/or not providing detailed reports for use in claims against fuel suppliers definitely factor into our considerations whether to purchase a new Ford truck (or other Ford vehicles for that matter). Corey, this is something to pass up the food chain, Ford customers are paying attention to these issues.
I have the same truck with 75,000 miles on it. Hope that I will not have the same problems in the future. I use mine for mainly towing a fifth wheel RV. Good luck.
Don
I just received another response in my escalation and will quote below. Short story, Ford is not doing anything to assist in this matter. Again, I have asked them what their owners are supposed to do since their Fuel Filters and Sensors do not seem to be able to detect / mitigate what appears to be a growing problem.
Quote:
Hello Jeff,
My name is Mea and I am also from Ford's Customer Relationship Center (CRC). I received your response and appreciate you for providing us the requested information.
I understand you are having an issue with the fuel on your 2008 Ford F-250. I am truly sorry for the inconvenience this experience may have caused you. I have looked into this matter for you.
Our records indicate that your concern has been reviewed by our Customer Service Manager Senetha. You were advised that your vehicle repair cannot be performed under the warranty due to the contaminations found on your vehicle’s fuel.
As a general rule, warranty coverage is limited to defects occurring under normal use of the vehicle during the warranty period. The warranty can be voided if the vehicle is misused or improperly maintained. We support the decision of your Dealership who has inspected your vehicle. As such, you will be responsible for all costs associated with this issue.
I appreciate the fact that you have been a loyal Ford customer and would like you to know that your feedback is highly valued by all divisions within Ford Motor Company. This information serves to provide us with insight into areas where we may need improvement. Feedback such as yours allows us to examine our practices and policies to ensure that we meet or exceed the expectations of our customers in the future.
On behalf of Ford Motor Company, I hope that we will have the chance to restore your confidence in our products and services.
Thank you for contacting Ford.
Sincerely,
Mea
Customer Relationship Center
Ford Motor Company
As you might expect - I am more than disappointed here.
With regard to your 'general rule' statement below, I have not driven my truck under any abnormal conditions and I have maintained my truck at the same Ford Dealership per Ford's Maintenance Schedule. The vehicle has not been ‘misused or improperly maintained’.
Given that, I am curious how you intend to ‘restore confidence’ in your products and services. Certainly you are not naïve enough to think that I will buy another Ford truck much less spend the $7k upgrade for a diesel?
What does Ford suggest its diesel owners do to ensure they are not pumping contaminated fuel into their vehicles? Per the examples cited in my DieselStop forum thread, this is hardly an isolated incident. Your sensors and fuel filters do not seem to be adequate to detect fuel contamination prior to doing $12k+ damage. Ford is losing life-long customers and sadly will continue to do so unless you do something to mitigate this serious issue.
Uncertain to either question at this point. When the original diag was performed, the dealer informed me water was in the fuel but they would need to 'drop the fuel tank' to make a full determination.
I've since filed a Comprehensive claim with my insurance carrier and an adjuster is supposed to visit the dealership today.
In the meantime, I continue to press Ford for what THEY recommend as I refuse to drive another Ford diesel under the current circumstances. To this point, all they've been willing to state it is the driver's respsonibility to 'test each tank of fuel' to determine whether the fuel is contaminated. Obviously, I find this completely unacceptable.
Here is the latest query I've posed to corporate. I'd certainly welcome additional comments from other Ford customers and / or Cory:
Quote:
So basically Ford is not standing behind their product even based on the following:
1) No warning lights about “water in the fuel” came on, even though they should (product malfunction in my mind)
2) Regularly maintaining the vehicle provides absolutely no protection and again, owners need to check the fuel quality each time before filling their tank.
3) We should expect that having had the vehicle serviced for a new fuel filter at least twice since 2010 we should have received a fuel filter that did NOT have 2010 manufacturing date stamps (possible negligence by servicing dealer?)
Has Ford publically advised all their diesel owners that they must test the diesel every time they go to fill up their tank? If normal driving and regular maintenance does NOT prevent this from occurring (and Ford’s own sensors don’t aptly warn of an issue before it is too late), Ford has the responsibility to alert owners that this can occur, if they do NOT test the diesel every time they fill.
Since Ford does not seem to want to educate its owners, or prospective owners, on how to avoid this, I guess it is up to the general public to make sure that others are educated. I am more than happy to assist with that education.
this is FORD with 6.4 engines across the nation, your not the only one.
If you are not able to get your hands in there and source out the problem, just get another truck, fighting with FORD will just steal your time and mind away.
Emmisions has killed the diesel engine all for global warming/ climate change scam.
I had a 6.4 with turbo failure at 22,000 miles due to timing cover cavitation, FORD try to tell me lack of oil changes, had to repair it myself.
Have not been in the loop to know if a class action is available, just find another truck or fix it on your own.
javier
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1988 F250 dually All New 7.3 IDI, Banks Sidewinder.
C-6 with GearVendors overdrive 3.55 ring gear Synthetic SAE 10W-30/SAE 30 Heavy-Duty Motor Oil,
Evans NPG coolant.
AMSOIL ATF in the transmission, AMSOIL gear oil in the diff.
20MPG city 25/28 hwy
this is FORD with 6.4 engines across the nation, your not the only one.
If you are not able to get your hands in there and source out the problem, just get another truck, fighting with FORD will just steal your time and mind away.
Emmisions has killed the diesel engine all for global warming/ climate change scam.
I had a 6.4 with turbo failure at 22,000 miles due to timing cover cavitation, FORD try to tell me lack of oil changes, had to repair it myself.
Have not been in the loop to know if a class action is available, just find another truck or fix it on your own.
javier
Same issue is happening with the 6.7 as well. It is a problem for all of them due to the the switch to common rail fuel injection and the need for the HPFP.
The HPFP needs to be re-designed to recieve its lubrication from oil vs fuel. That will solve 90% of the issues.
__________________
08F250 CC 6.4 PSD
Banks 6 gun/ram air
40' Stoneridge 5th wheel, coming in at 15.4K.
Same issue is happening with the 6.7 as well. It is a problem for all of them due to the the switch to common rail fuel injection and the need for the HPFP.
The HPFP needs to be re-designed to recieve its lubrication from oil vs fuel. That will solve 90% of the issues.
Timing cover cavitation has absolutely nothing to do with the HPFP or with oil changes. If you had cavitation damage to the timing cover at 22,000 miles that is covered under the 3/36 base warranty. Cavitation comes from coolant issues and 22k is far under the specified maintenance intervals for the coolant.
Corey, if you're listening, it should be clear that your clueless outsourced "customer care" folks are slowly but surely destroying Ford's reputation. When I get to the end of the ESP on my 6.4 I may well take my business elsewhere for a new truck if these issues are not resolved.
Just heard from my tech at the dealership. They've dropped the tank and found heavy metal and the oil level was 5 quarts high (due to diesel in the oil). Also said that not only will it require a complete fuel system replacement to the tune of $12k but the Turbo is shot as well.
Waiting for my insurance adjuster at this point.
In addition, he intimated the same concerns as Senix on the impact of emmissions requirements and the lubrication of the High Pressure Fuel Pump via diesel vs. oil. However, he stated the 6.7 is now lubed via oil.
Thanks again for all the feedback. Will continue posting updates as they develop.
Just heard from my tech at the dealership. They've dropped the tank and found heavy metal and the oil level was 5 quarts high (due to diesel in the oil). Also said that not only will it require a complete fuel system replacement to the tune of $12k but the Turbo is shot as well.
Waiting for my insurance adjuster at this point.
In addition, he intimated the same concerns as Senix on the impact of emmissions requirements and the lubrication of the High Pressure Fuel Pump via diesel vs. oil. However, he stated the 6.7 is now lubed via oil.
Thanks again for all the feedback. Will continue posting updates as they develop.
6.7 still recieves the lube through fuel...unless it is a design change for 2013?
__________________
08F250 CC 6.4 PSD
Banks 6 gun/ram air
40' Stoneridge 5th wheel, coming in at 15.4K.
I have not seen the horror stories of water in fuel on the other brands' sites.
Ford needs to do something about this if they are serious about leadership in truck sales in the diesel engined segment.
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Don't tell my cattle I got leather seats!
2006 F450 CC Hauler bed 4x2 6.0 L Pstroke/Torqshift, Lariat, 4.30 r/a.
2006 F350 Lariat CC Dually 4X2, 6.0 TQShift 4.10 LS, STOCK.
36 feet on the floor Elite/Outlaw LQ horse trailer.
36 foot double tandem axle flatbed trailer.
36 foot Sooner 6 horse large dressing/ mid tack.
15 horses with good balance from being hauled behind a P'stroke.
I'm baffled about the comment from Ford, that owners need to inspect fuel at each fill up..seriously?? How is one suppose to perform this task?
I'm seriously considering on selling my F350..I believe that when something fails in the future..there is a chance that my ESP Premium warranty will be denied. ALL my servicing is performed by a Ford dealership.
There needs to be a class action against Ford..obviously not for monetary reasons but principle...They shouldn't be allowed to get away with this BS
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