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2008 F250 6.4L - Engine Oil Overfilled, Heavy Water & Rust

20K views 47 replies 15 participants last post by  Henry4Wheeler 
#1 ·
Hi Guys,

New to the forum as I just found online while researching recent probs.

After 400 mile round trip (all highway, no pulling), engine started to vibrate just as I got home. I took it to nearest Ford dealer when Reduced Power came on. Water in Fuel light never came on.

Dealer performed diag and indicates: Verified concern. Found codes P088, P2296, P2291 and engine overfilled, check oil and found filled with fuel. Took fuel sample and found heavy water and rust. Also found P0299 for no boost found charge air cooler filled with fuel and oil mix. Turbos are inop due to lack of oil. Rust also found on fuel filters which are 'stamped' 2010 which this dealer thought to be very odd.

Background on Truck: Has 68k miles and have had all regular scheduled maintenance performed by another Ford dealer. 60k maintenance performed in April at 59.8k miles. Service notes indicate they changed the oil, replaced air and fuel filters, multi-point inspection and transmission service. Primary use is to and from the office which is only 2.5 miles each way.

Diagnosing dealer states they want to drop the fuel tank and inspect for contaminates for $1500. Possibility of replacing Hi-Pressure Pump ($1600), Fuel Pump ($1600) or as much as $12k if replacing entire fuel system.

Final note: Something similar occurred 18 months ago at 24k miles after Water in Fuel light came on followed by Fail Safe Warning. At that time, servicing dealer replaced the Fuel Tank, 1 Injector, DPF, Electric Fuel Pump.

Any advice or guidance would be most appreciated.
 
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#2 ·
Need to pull all of your service records, get in contact with Cory from Ford cust service on this site. Open up a service record.

It could be a couple of things here.

First seems like they are pointing to lack of maintance. You can stop that with records. Secondly seems like they are pointing to incorrect filters maybe...again if a ford dealer did it that is there problem.

Then there is the fuel issue. Perhaps the first time they did not do what was fully required or...you have an insurance claim because of bad fuel.

Best to start talking with your insurance and with whomever you get your fuel from.
 
#4 ·
Need to pull all of your service records, get in contact with Cory from Ford cust service on this site...
I appreciate the shout-out, senix. :yesnod:

Thank you Senix. I definitely have all my service records and will reach out to Corey on the site. Will keep posting with updates as they develop.
MangoMan,

Welcome to the forum! I have a busy inbox, so please expect a reply within a day or two from when you send it.

Cory
 
#12 ·
Just got off the phone again with Senetha at Ford Corporate. The OEM is declining to do any kind of warranty repair siting 'Fuel Contamination'. She could not / would not answer the following questions. Any kind of guidance, assistance or additional information would be greatly appreciated.

1. Shouldn't the fuel filters catch / address contaminated fuel?
2. Shouldn't the engine have sensors indicating a problem with the fuel?
3. If I were to purchase another Ford Diesel, and if the filters and sensors are not capable of addressing this problem, how should I expect to avoid similar problems in the future?
4. How often does a situation like this occur with the Ford Turbo Diesel? Does it occur with the diesels made by other brands?
5. This vehicle comes off lease on Jan 3 2013. Why should I purchase another Ford Turbo Diesel if the problems above cannot be easily remedied?

She also would not provide me with the detailed findings used to make the determination - citing 'confidentiality'. Given that it is my truck and that it directly involves me, I find that unacceptable as well.

I am not a professional truck driver, nor do I drive a lot of miles. However, I've been a Ford customer since the early 90's and have a gooseneck horse trailer.

Sadly though, I cannot think of a good reason at this time to purchase / lease another, given the apparent outcome of this situation. Diesel engines have been around for many decades and are known to run for many hundreds of thousands of miles. It's one of the reasons we pay $6k+ for the upgrade. It strikes me as implausible that contaminated fuel is a new issue.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Diesel engines have been around for many decades and are known to run for many hundreds of thousands of miles. It's one of the reasons we pay $6k+ for the upgrade. It strikes me as implausible that contaminated fuel is a new issue.
Here is the thing -

It is true that Diesel engines have been around for many decades. It is also true that they were largely unchanged during all those decades. This lasted up until the year 2000 or so after which point diesel engines were subjected to emissions regulations.

With emissions regulation diesel engines went through such a drastic change in technology that they are barely comparable to their predecessors.

- Simple mechanical fuel injection distributor pumps were replaced by high pressure (26,000PSI+) fuel pumps feeding common fuel rails and electronically controled fuel injectors.

- Natural aspiration or simple single turbochargers were replaced with multiple turbo charger configurations and servo controlled variable geometry vanes in the turbos.

- Exhaust systems that were previously wide open or had a simple catalyst now have diesel particulate filters that trap soot, but require periodic high temperature regeneration to clear out the accumulated soot.

- Exhaust gas recirculation systems were added to control production of oxides of nitrogen, and these EGR systems present another seto of issues and complexity.

Effectively today's diesel engines are only around 10 years old in terms of large scale use, and the technology is still being developed and refined. Since the emissions regulations affect all manufacturers, all brands have similar issues in these early years of the new technology.

Some people will point out that Dodge with it's Cummins engines haven't had the same issues to date, however this is a matter of them being able to just barely meet the early stages of emissions requirements without having to add all the new components. Emissions regulations are still tightening so they will face the same issues soon enough. If anything the other brands have a bit of a head start and should have the issues with the new technology resolved soon.

The key commonality with the new diesels is that they do not tollerate all short trip use and they do not tollerate neglected maintenance. If you have a 2.5 mile commute, *DO NOT* use a diesel truck for the commute. If you have heavy weekend towing needs your choice is then to either get a gas truck that can handle the towing (they're better at it these days), or get a cheap car for commuting.

As for Ford not being upfront with their claimed findings, that is troubling. I would be consulting an atty if I were you if this is going to cost you any real money and the dealer has done all scheduled maintenance. Many of us with Ford diesels are approaching the end of our ESP warranties and considering new trucks. We follow these forums and such reports of Ford not standing behind their product and/or not providing detailed reports for use in claims against fuel suppliers definitely factor into our considerations whether to purchase a new Ford truck (or other Ford vehicles for that matter). Corey, this is something to pass up the food chain, Ford customers are paying attention to these issues.
 
#13 ·
Call your insurance company and put in a claim for bad fuel...contaminated fuel.

How can anyone outside of the refinery control the quality of fuel?

It happens accross all vehicle lines. VW has a real problem right now.
 
#14 ·
Thanks senix - you've been a big help and I appreciate your insight.

However, this does not appear to be an isolated incident. Prior to your reply here, I submitted a PDF of this thread to the National Vehicle Leasing Association. The first reply I received is from one of their Board Members:

"I had a customer with (2) 2008 F450 with the diesel engine, and they spent over $25k cumulative in fuel system related repairs in the first 90k between the two trucks.

Ford declined all repairs under warranty citing fuel and road contaminant issues.

2 identical trucks, with identical use, and mysteriously 2 identical responses from Ford.

Who do you think your lease customer comes to with a problem like this? Their experts, the independent leasing company. We have since lost this customer because of our inability to get Ford to “own up” to this problem.

Funny thing is that in all of this, Ford issued a TSB that said the fuel tank vent lines were too short and could be overcome with road contaminants. Ford still declined any repairs under warranty."
 
#15 ·
Thanks senix - you've been a big help and I appreciate your insight.

However, this does not appear to be an isolated incident. Prior to your reply here, I submitted a PDF of this thread to the National Vehicle Leasing Association. The first reply I received is from one of their Board Members:
Even the 6.7 has the same issues...even more so.

Anything with common rail High pressure fuel pumps...anything 2008 model year and up is possible for this.

does not make it right. An alternate way of lubrication is the answer.
 
#19 ·
WP6529 and other Ford Diesel Owners,

I just received another response in my escalation and will quote below. Short story, Ford is not doing anything to assist in this matter. Again, I have asked them what their owners are supposed to do since their Fuel Filters and Sensors do not seem to be able to detect / mitigate what appears to be a growing problem.

Hello Jeff,

My name is Mea and I am also from Ford's Customer Relationship Center (CRC). I received your response and appreciate you for providing us the requested information.

I understand you are having an issue with the fuel on your 2008 Ford F-250. I am truly sorry for the inconvenience this experience may have caused you. I have looked into this matter for you.

Our records indicate that your concern has been reviewed by our Customer Service Manager Senetha. You were advised that your vehicle repair cannot be performed under the warranty due to the contaminations found on your vehicle’s fuel.

As a general rule, warranty coverage is limited to defects occurring under normal use of the vehicle during the warranty period. The warranty can be voided if the vehicle is misused or improperly maintained. We support the decision of your Dealership who has inspected your vehicle. As such, you will be responsible for all costs associated with this issue.

I appreciate the fact that you have been a loyal Ford customer and would like you to know that your feedback is highly valued by all divisions within Ford Motor Company. This information serves to provide us with insight into areas where we may need improvement. Feedback such as yours allows us to examine our practices and policies to ensure that we meet or exceed the expectations of our customers in the future.

On behalf of Ford Motor Company, I hope that we will have the chance to restore your confidence in our products and services.

Thank you for contacting Ford.

Sincerely,
Mea
Customer Relationship Center
Ford Motor Company
 
#20 ·
And here is my response:

As you might expect - I am more than disappointed here.

With regard to your 'general rule' statement below, I have not driven my truck under any abnormal conditions and I have maintained my truck at the same Ford Dealership per Ford's Maintenance Schedule. The vehicle has not been ‘misused or improperly maintained’.

Given that, I am curious how you intend to ‘restore confidence’ in your products and services. Certainly you are not naïve enough to think that I will buy another Ford truck much less spend the $7k upgrade for a diesel?

What does Ford suggest its diesel owners do to ensure they are not pumping contaminated fuel into their vehicles? Per the examples cited in my DieselStop forum thread, this is hardly an isolated incident. Your sensors and fuel filters do not seem to be adequate to detect fuel contamination prior to doing $12k+ damage. Ford is losing life-long customers and sadly will continue to do so unless you do something to mitigate this serious issue.
 
#23 ·
@Ding126 -

Uncertain to either question at this point. When the original diag was performed, the dealer informed me water was in the fuel but they would need to 'drop the fuel tank' to make a full determination.

I've since filed a Comprehensive claim with my insurance carrier and an adjuster is supposed to visit the dealership today.

In the meantime, I continue to press Ford for what THEY recommend as I refuse to drive another Ford diesel under the current circumstances. To this point, all they've been willing to state it is the driver's respsonibility to 'test each tank of fuel' to determine whether the fuel is contaminated. Obviously, I find this completely unacceptable.

Here is the latest query I've posed to corporate. I'd certainly welcome additional comments from other Ford customers and / or Cory:

So basically Ford is not standing behind their product even based on the following:
1) No warning lights about “water in the fuel” came on, even though they should (product malfunction in my mind)
2) Regularly maintaining the vehicle provides absolutely no protection and again, owners need to check the fuel quality each time before filling their tank.
3) We should expect that having had the vehicle serviced for a new fuel filter at least twice since 2010 we should have received a fuel filter that did NOT have 2010 manufacturing date stamps (possible negligence by servicing dealer?)

Has Ford publically advised all their diesel owners that they must test the diesel every time they go to fill up their tank? If normal driving and regular maintenance does NOT prevent this from occurring (and Ford’s own sensors don’t aptly warn of an issue before it is too late), Ford has the responsibility to alert owners that this can occur, if they do NOT test the diesel every time they fill.

Since Ford does not seem to want to educate its owners, or prospective owners, on how to avoid this, I guess it is up to the general public to make sure that others are educated. I am more than happy to assist with that education.
 
#24 ·
this is FORD with 6.4 engines across the nation, your not the only one.

If you are not able to get your hands in there and source out the problem, just get another truck, fighting with FORD will just steal your time and mind away.

Emmisions has killed the diesel engine all for global warming/ climate change scam.

I had a 6.4 with turbo failure at 22,000 miles due to timing cover cavitation, FORD try to tell me lack of oil changes, had to repair it myself.

Have not been in the loop to know if a class action is available, just find another truck or fix it on your own.


javier
 
#25 ·
this is FORD with 6.4 engines across the nation, your not the only one.

If you are not able to get your hands in there and source out the problem, just get another truck, fighting with FORD will just steal your time and mind away.

Emmisions has killed the diesel engine all for global warming/ climate change scam.

I had a 6.4 with turbo failure at 22,000 miles due to timing cover cavitation, FORD try to tell me lack of oil changes, had to repair it myself.

Have not been in the loop to know if a class action is available, just find another truck or fix it on your own.


javier
Same issue is happening with the 6.7 as well. It is a problem for all of them due to the the switch to common rail fuel injection and the need for the HPFP.

The HPFP needs to be re-designed to recieve its lubrication from oil vs fuel. That will solve 90% of the issues.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Just heard from my tech at the dealership. They've dropped the tank and found heavy metal and the oil level was 5 quarts high (due to diesel in the oil). Also said that not only will it require a complete fuel system replacement to the tune of $12k but the Turbo is shot as well.

Waiting for my insurance adjuster at this point.

In addition, he intimated the same concerns as Senix on the impact of emmissions requirements and the lubrication of the High Pressure Fuel Pump via diesel vs. oil. However, he stated the 6.7 is now lubed via oil.

Thanks again for all the feedback. Will continue posting updates as they develop.
 
#28 ·
Just heard from my tech at the dealership. They've dropped the tank and found heavy metal and the oil level was 5 quarts high (due to diesel in the oil). Also said that not only will it require a complete fuel system replacement to the tune of $12k but the Turbo is shot as well.

Waiting for my insurance adjuster at this point.

In addition, he intimated the same concerns as Senix on the impact of emmissions requirements and the lubrication of the High Pressure Fuel Pump via diesel vs. oil. However, he stated the 6.7 is now lubed via oil.

Thanks again for all the feedback. Will continue posting updates as they develop.
6.7 still recieves the lube through fuel...unless it is a design change for 2013?
 
#29 ·
I have not seen the horror stories of water in fuel on the other brands' sites.
Ford needs to do something about this if they are serious about leadership in truck sales in the diesel engined segment.
 
#30 ·
I'm baffled about the comment from Ford, that owners need to inspect fuel at each fill up..seriously?? How is one suppose to perform this task?

I'm seriously considering on selling my F350..I believe that when something fails in the future..there is a chance that my ESP Premium warranty will be denied. ALL my servicing is performed by a Ford dealership.

There needs to be a class action against Ford..obviously not for monetary reasons but principle...They shouldn't be allowed to get away with this BS
 
#32 ·
That makes as much sense as the muslim video that caused the attack in Benghazi.

what makes sense it Union Labor and Job security.


Sorry for the brutal honesty


Javier
 
#33 ·
@DING126 - That is absolutely what they've said and it's absolutely a vaccuous and unacceptable answer.

@zedd - The dealer dropped the tank yesterday and that's what the service tech told me over the phone. I intend to get a full report from them and will post here when I get it.

I'm supposed to hear back from my insurance adjuster today. They are taking a fuel sample to test themselves.
 
#34 ·
WHAT A MESS! I'LL STICK WITH MY 7.3.
 
#37 ·
Here is a copy of an email sent last Friday to Frederiek Toney, VP of Customer Service at Ford. Have not heard anything back from him yet but will post if he responds.

+++

SUBJECT: "Ford customer relations states we must test the diesel every time we purchase fuel"

Dear Mr. Toney,

That is the response we received from Ford’s customer service representative, Senetha, regarding contaminants that were found in our fuel with the potential of $12k in damages.

As background, our 2008 Ford 250 diesel has less than 70k miles and is primarily used for highway and city driving with the occasional pulling of a 3 horse gooseneck trailer. As far as “jobs” that Ford 250 diesels are expected to perform, ours has an easy life. All regularly scheduled maintenance, including fuel filters, has been performed by a Ford dealer. No warning lights came on before shut down and this is the second time this has occurred with our vehicle (the first at 24k and Ford did cover under warranty).

My questions to you: 1) Is Ford’s only response on how we should prevent this in the future to test the diesel before every purchase? 2) If this is Ford’s response, what is Ford doing to educate its customers that they need to do this.

I’ve attached the thread my husband posted on a diesel forum trying to find assistance on this issue. At the bottom of this email is an excerpt from that thread. Continued communication after that thread as well as communication from a note we sent to the NVLA’s member list indicate this is not an unheard of issue with Fords.

Repeated attempts to gain information on how to prevent this in the future from your customer relations email alias were met with variations of a canned response, even after I indicated I would take this to the social media.

Below is what I have begun posting on various auto sites and social media outlets.

“Ford corporate recently told us that we need to test the diesel fuel every time before filling up our 2008 Ford diesel F250. This occurred after contaminants were found in the fuel and we now have up to $12k in damages. The truck has less than 70k miles and this is the second time this has occurred (first at 24k). Truck still under warranty. No abnormal driving, primarily highway and occasional pulling of a 3 horse gooseneck trailer. All scheduled maintenance, including fuel filters, was regularly performed by a Ford Dealer. No warning lights came on before engine shut down. Through postings on diesel forums and leasing associations, we are hearing this is not an uncommon problem.”

Again, I ask you, as the executive of customer relations, the questions below:

1) Must a customer test the diesel fuel at each purchase (assuming normal use and all regularly scheduled maintenance) to prevent such an incident?
2) If so, how is Ford educating or informing customers that they need to do this or warranties will be voided? (i.e. where in the owner’s manual, service documentation, etc. is this stated)
3) Would you personally purchase a Ford diesel knowing that you needed to test the fuel at each purchase?

Thank you in advance for your attention to our concerns.
 
#38 · (Edited)
See if you can get samples of the fuel that was in the tank as I think that will be critical to you being successful in holding someone accountable. I would get a sample out of the tank which has been sitting undisturbed and a sample with the fuel all mixed up together. Do you always fill up at the same gas station? If not, how long after refueling did the crap hit the fan? Can you prove you refueled at the station that sold you the contaminated fuel? As a side note, diesel is commonly used to flush out all sorts of equipment and piping and this contaminated diesel must be reprocessed by law (at least up here it is) which costs the holder of the contaminated diesel money. It wouldn't be the first time this type of contaminated fuel has been sold at an extremely discounted price to a dishonest station owner who in turn sells it at a premium price. Not to seem like I'm on Ford's side but since the water in fuel indicator relies on conductivity it may have been rendered useless if the diesel had some type of corrosive chemical in it that affected the sensors ability to make electrical contact with the water, but getting the fuel analyzed will answer that question. Also puzzled as to how all that fuel gets into the lube oil, is due to the pump failure?
 
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