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Help! Per Ford 20k for new engine "improper maint"
Hey all. Our company has a 2008 Ford F450. It has been to 4 different Ford dealers in the past 2 Months at about 60k miles for Radiator, 2x for flywheel and torque converter. Once the repair was complete we tacked on an oil change and were informed by Ford that we need a new Engine for $21,000.00 and the cause is "Improper Maintenance" (dirty oil, metal shavings). For some reason, this truck was transferred to various Ford dealers with none of them made any mention of concern with the engine.
Is there an argument here? Unfortunately, we have insufficient maintenance records to defend ourselves. It is my personal opinion that procrastinating oil changes, while not healthy, does not destroy an engine. Is there any argument that the countless issues with cooling system, trans etc. were a contributing factor if not the main cause of engine failure? What's the next step?? Any experience or advice would be greatly appreciated.
That depends on what failed, but "procrastination" leads to engine failures, for darn sure. There is a reason for recommended oil change intervals. Since you say it is a company truck I would NEVER go more than the recommended interval. People who don't own their work trucks tend to beat the he!! out of them. A few oil changes even at full list $120 a pop seems pretty cheap now. The worst part is that without proper maintainance records, you are hosed in most cases, even in court.
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Dad always said,"Knowledge is limited but stupidity knows no bounds."
Well I am no attorney or even a legal guru but I would call Ford customer service and lodge a complaint. As you mention about lack of maintenace records what proof do they have you didn't perform the maintenace? There's no requirement to have oil changes done at a dealer so how do they know? It really sounds like this dealer has contacted the regional rep and for what ever reason they've come up against there warranty wall so he is telling them to have your company purchase it. Just becuase an engine has shavings in it doesn't necessarily prove you didn't perform required maintenance. Just my .02. If that doesn't work I would get your company"s attorney involved!
This is just my opinion, but your company needs to hire a fleet manager or contract it out. If you have 2 or more vehicles, you have a fleet. With that comes discounts on services because you pre-pay and get a business rate. If your company failed to arrange for proper maintenance on the equipment it uses to generate revenue, then they deserve to pay for a new engine. It may be cheaper to just buy the new International than to go to court when you add up lost wages, vehicle down-time, court fees, lawyer fees and so on. I feel bad for you as I am sure this affects your productivity, but not for your company. Piss poor planning and ****ty maintenance always comes back to haunt you sooner or later.
It is my personal opinion that procrastinating oil changes, while not healthy, does not destroy an engine.
My personal opinion is that the facts show that your opinion is dead wrong. Your company is out a pile of money because they couldn't be bothered to take care of their equipment. I've known several people that shared your opinion and had to replace expensive engines.
Sorry if that seems a bit harsh, but that's the way I see it. I don't see where you have any basis for a complaint. You don't maintain the truck properly and gets gets VERY expensive in a hurry.
__________________ Mark
Former Automatic Transmission Engineer 1988-2007
I have to agree with Mark. I think this is what you are preventing in preventive maintenance.
I sold very expensive mechanical rotating equipment to pay for my trucks and I always stressed to my customers preventive maintenance using proper lube oil and filters at recommended intervals. Reminds me of a customer who complained about the price of our approved oil and filters until the warranty ran out. He then went out and bought and used brand x oil to save some money and his equipment catastrophically failed a couple weeks later. The customer came back and asked for a warranty replacement from the manufacturer. Guess what.
__________________ 2008 F450 DRW CC LWB 4x4 Off Road, Lariat, Oxford White, 4.30 LS rear end, Navigation, audiophile stereo, Memory package seats, heated seats, heated mirrors, warmup heat option power back window, traction control system, backup alarm, rear DVD with wireless headphones.
Sure it is a reason to deny warranty claims. Give us some more information. You say the truck has 60,000 miles on it. When was it purchased new? How many oil and filter changes were performed on the truck up to the current situation? 60,000 miles divided by 7,500 miles(recommended oil/filter change interval for hard use= 8 oil/filter changes. How many did your company have performed on this truck? $21,000 for a 6.4PSD, sounds like the price has gone up since the 6.0PSD.
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This is a 2008 F450 purchased new with about 64K miles. I'm not at all trying to argue that neglecting regular maintenance is OK, obviously it is not! The biggest problem is documentation now that we are in a defensive position. It still seems pretty lame that Ford can take this position on a vehicle that has been nothing but problematic from day one. Our biggest problem was not specifying an oil change to the Ford Service dept on each of the 4 occasions that they failed to repair the vehicle. It was practically assumed that checking/changing the oil would be incidental to tearing apart the transmission for 2-3 weeks. Within 2 weeks of receiving the truck from 1 dealer, the flywheel broke again and it was towed to another dealer where it sat for 2 weeks waiting for parts for their jack. We then decided to have it moved to another Ford dealer who sat it it for 2 more weeks, replaced flywheel, torque converter, etc. We requested an oil change and the service dept came to the conclusion that the engine needed to be replaced due to "improper maintenance". As far as the regular maint. goes, we our partially guilty but mostly unable to provide written proof. I "get" the whole maintenance thing and the responsibility of the vehicle owner. I still believe we are being taken advantage of in this case. Now that Ford is tired of replacing parts that don't correct the problem the only logical conclusion is to blame the customer. Seems to me that a faulty cooling system and transmission would put at least some undue strain on the motor if it wasn't the main cause.
No doubt, serious changes are in order at the company. The first thing I did was to change the sludge in my '05 Nissan Titan. I think the last change was January '08. Improper Maintenance? Guilty as charged but my engine hasn't blown up.
You purchased a USED truck, sold as NEW? At 64k miles?
How is the flywheel, torque convertor, and transmission related to improper maintenance of your engine? Does the engine oil cycle through all these other parts? I'm not following. It sounds like maintenance was disregarded for just bout everything on this truck (not trying to add insult to injury here, sorry). In my extremely limited knowledge of the components in our trucks, it just seems like these are all unrelated failures.
You purchased a USED truck, sold as NEW? At 64k miles?
How is the flywheel, torque convertor, and transmission related to improper maintenance of your engine? Does the engine oil cycle through all these other parts? I'm not following. It sounds like maintenance was disregarded for just bout everything on this truck (not trying to add insult to injury here, sorry). In my extremely limited knowledge of the components in our trucks, it just seems like these are all unrelated failures.
sorry... purchased new and currently has 64K miles. I'm no mechanic either so for all I know it is totally unrelated.
Well, somewhere there is a paper trail on the oil and filter purchases. Gotta be either credit / debit receipts or petty cash receipts. If "the company" is so loose that it can't provide any records, I have a feeling what it goes thru with Ford is going to be tame to what it will go thru at tax time. Have fun with it.
It was practically assumed that checking/changing the oil would be incidental to tearing apart the transmission for 2-3 weeks.
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How would an engine oil change be incidental to any transmission work? Is a front end alignment and wheel bearing packing also assumed when the trans is worked on?
Your company really needs to hire someone that knows something about vehicles to maintain the fleet, or contract it out to a company that knows something. I think they are learning an expen$ive lesson that nobody there has enough knowledge about vehicles to get this job done.
__________________ Mark
Former Automatic Transmission Engineer 1988-2007
i m betting there s less than 3 documented oil changes ....
sounds like this truck racked up the miles real quick....by one or two drivers.
why didnt they change the oil on the road ? i ve done that a few times just to keep in the 5 k per oil change. ford dealer, gm dealer all have quik lane for oil changes.
our single truck at work has a check list..each time its taken out, by anyone the list needs to be completed before leaving. i learned that from a limo company i drove for years back....every time u got in a car, oil, walk around to check for leaks, and proper light operation.
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Ok now that everyone has thrashed the guy.... I would get a sample of the oil if it is still available and have Blackstone or another lab that is industry accepted check it out and give an opinion. If the oil still has acceptable additive package, and all other measurements are in spec then the failure is NOT oil related no matter how long it's been in there. This is an industry standard on large fleets. They change oil according to oil analysis not interval. On the other hand if the oil is completely depleted, then you know where you stand. If an injector failed and filled the crank case full of fuel, that has nothing to do with oil maint. Just some food for thought.
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2006 Dodge CTD 2500 SLT 4X4 Quad Cab Long Bed 6 Speed.
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Automatic Transmission Engineer 1988-2007
I hate to be the bad guy......
in my '05 Nissan Titan. I think the last change was January '08. Improper Maintenance? Guilty as charged but my engine hasn't blown up.
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