horses mouth

[cc1999]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As much as I too would like a cat in my SD, and would be willing to pay real premium for it over the PSD. I predicted the cummins do to the ownership Ford has of the cummins corporation. With DC talking possably going to MB diesel motors in the future, that move may leave enough production capacity for cummins to be able to gear up to supply its parent company the motors for the SD trucks.


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Obviously, you've been out of touch for awhile. How long do you think Ford has owned Cummins?? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Tell me, if Ford owns Cummins, why in the world have they not given Navistar their walking papers? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]

"Parent company"...funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well my Ford fleet rep brought it up a few months ago, when we were speculating the direction Ford would go. I was under the impression Ford had made the aquasition of the controlling shares back in the mid 90's 94-95 something like that. My fleet rep said it has always been a capacity issue for cummins to be able to supply Ford the engines they would need for the F-series. I remember back to the days when I was working in a Dodge dealership that there was something like a 50,000 engine limit that Dodge could get from Cummins, I am sure that is higher by now but I could relate what he was telling me to my own experence with the dodge trucks many years ago. Now if there has been a change to the ownership of cummins plaese just say so and when, I may verywell be out touch here on who owns them now. It was ford the last I knew. And it was a long term relationship Ford had with navstar and the limmited capacity cummins had, were the reasons for not converting to cummins.

[drford]

Obviously, you've been out of touch for awhile. How long do you think Ford has owned Cummins?? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Tell me, if Ford owns Cummins, why in the world have they not given Navistar their walking papers? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]

"Parent company"...funny.

[/ QUOTE ]


all for owns of cummins is the patent rights to a couple of cummins engines direct from a cummins rep thay use this engine in other applications is all these engines are either too samll or too big for use in a superduty ie 4cyl diesel and a large inline 6 cyll 8.3l or something like that

[gregrob]

Oh God [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] is that rumor still floating around?
http://cummins.com/sa/pages/en/customera...84A0004AC33EA57 [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[drford]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh God [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] is that rumor still floating around?
http://cummins.com/sa/pages/en/customera...84A0004AC33EA57 [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

WELL IT'S ABOUT TIME SOMEONE CLARIFIED THIS THANKS GREGOB

ALSO IT IS TRUE THOUGH ON THE CUMMINS ENGIE ISSUE WITH THE PATENT RIGHTS IT IS NO DIFFERENT THAN GM OWNING PATEDT RIGHTS ON THE DURAMAX AND FORD OWNING EMISSION PATAENT RIGHTS ON THE NAVISTAR ECT.

[EBExp2000]

Or.....Ford COULD be designing their own engine. It could be their own, or with help from someone else. They then, like GM, could product the engine in their own plant, with their own quality control.

Since a good number of major problems with the 6.0 are the fault of International's/Navistar's quality control, the idea of Ford making their own engine with higher quality control standards isn't so bad....providing it's designed well.

All of the diesel engines used in these pickup trucks are well designed, IMHO. For the exception of emissions related problems, it's the crappy quality control that gives us the problems.

[cc1999]

I do not think it was ever about pattend rights at least, that was what I was talking about, but since I am admiting that I am really out of touch here I decided to do some research to get myself up to speed, on what was and is what today. Here is an interesting artical someone copied and pasted on a thread located on a different site. This believe it or not actauly makes some since to how that rummor got its leggs. It would seem that based on the way things are now we are all driving a cummins.

Whoever was the author of this article took the time to do some major research on the subject. I guess it just goes to show we never really know who owns who anymore!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...from another thread on the subject...

you're all wrong. But it's a very complicated story, and I wouldn't blame you for not reading about it, or even for not believing it.
(1) Isuzu owned Subaru, and sold out to Fuji Heavy Industries, which was then jointly acquired by British Leyland and Ford.
(2) BL & Ford then spun off Fuji/Subaru into an independent company. Big mistake. Ford bought BL, and owned Isuzu outright. Big mistake.
(3) Isuzu entered into a joint development partnership with Navistar International. Stock interests were traded. Eventually, one of the projects would be a 7.3L V-8 light-duty diesel. Guess who picked that one up for use in its pickup trucks?
(4) Navistar also had entered into a joint development partnership with Caterpillar. One of the projects was a direct injection system that would be picked up by -- Ford. And Isuzu mediums.
(5) Caterpillar owned a large chunk of Bosch. GM owned another big chunk. And so did a third major player -- Daimler Benz. Bosch was the primary developer of Caterpillar's direct injection system. But GM forced Caterpillar to turn over its share of Bosch, and then forced Bosch to abandon direct injection in favor of developing an "improved" generation rotary injection pumps. The initial designs for those pumps had been brought to GM by former Isuzu engineers working for Ford.
(6) What did Caterpillar receive in return for giving GM its stock in Bosch? GM's stock in Cummins. Ford then sold its small share of Cummins stock because of antitrust regulations in the U.S. Caterpillar, on the other hand, avoided antitrust problems by a joint incorporation agreement with Cummins under a Brazilian operation named Inquardo, Ltd.
(7) Eventually almost all Cummins manufacturing and design were moved over to that part of the "house". However, that move proved so efficient and profitable that Cummins began to eat into significant markets for Caterpillar, so Caterpillar merged its manufacturing and design base with Cummins in Brazil, leaving skeleton operations only in places like Peoria, Illinois. Cummins management largely pushed out Caterpillar management after several years.
(8) With me so far? Caterpillar owns Cummins, but Cummins has effectively "eaten" Caterpillar. In Brazil. Here, they're separate, of course, but it's only the purposes of adhering to American commercial law. But wait. There's more.
(9) Ford had some disasterous capitalization-and-flow problems after the overseas buying spree of the early nineties, during which it acquired British Leyland, Isuzu, Fuji, part of Fiat, and parts of other companies. Ford was forced to sell Isuzu to maintain cash flow beyond the U.S. Who did they sell Isuzu to? Navistar International. Along with certain manufacturing and sourcing arrangements. Navistar hoped to go global again, as in the grand old days of International Harvester.

(10) But Navistar couldn't hold on to Isuzu either, what with a $2 billion dollar loss in 1995, and eventually sold its controlling interest in the company to Daimler Benz.
(11) Isuzu was having its own problems, since its global market share in light and medium diesels was rapidly shrinking. The cause of the problem was Cummins, which, after swallowing Caterpillar - in Brazil - had also acquired NGT, Tapei Technologies, Allison Canada, and Nansen-Renault, all in hostile takeovers, all manufacturers of diesel technologies outside of the U.S. So, Cummins had effectively cornered the controlling share of the global market outside of North America and Western Europe. (Why do you think the splashgate at their website is so heavily global?)
(12) After nine months of negotiation, Cummins and its subsidiary, Allison Canada, entered into a joint development arrangement with Isuzu, owned by Daimler, and with the surviving U.S. corporation, Allison, which was at that point partly owned by GM. Cummins, however, dominated the partnership, and eventually managed to assume Daimler's and GM's interests in Isuzu and and Allison.
(13) In the case of Isuzu, Cummins has an equal partnership with Daimler, which, of course, has also acquired Chrysler Corporation. That's why, when Ford offered Cummins a billion-dollar package to manfacture medium and light truck diesels for its vehicles in 2001, Cummins said no. Again, for antitrust reasons, a public holding company was set up to handle Isuzu as a separate corporate entity. The name of the company is Benz Transporation Technologies, of San Paulo, Brazil. BTT also is a major owner of the Benz division of Daimler Chrysler, which manufacturers most of the diesel engines in Europe. In the case of Allison, Cummins controls it through a series of holding companies ending with Inquardo, Ltd., the orginal Caterpillar-Cummins creation in Brazil. Cummins also controls a fair-size block of stock in GM, through the ownership of a cartel of South Korean and Thai banks and investment groups.
(14) Navistar has continued its free-fall in spite of its partnership with Ford in the light-duty diesel area. Three weeks ago, after the implications of labor troubles, a rise in basic resource costs, and the disasterous introduction of the 6.0L PSD had become clear, Navistar's financial arrangements with Citibank and Manufacturers B&T collapsed. Both banks arranged to float the company infrastructural loans if it would agree to a merger with -- are you ready for this? -- Inquardo, Ltd. As of last Thursday, Cummins owns 67% of Navistar through Inquardo.
Right now, Cummins makes all diesels in all pickup trucks sold in the United States. Cummins makes 73% of all diesels in all trucks sold in the world. The board of directors at Inquardo -- which isn't listed on any stock exchange -- includes 9 Cummins execs, 2 Caterpillar execs, and one Wells Fargo Bank exec. The CEO and CFO are also Cummins vice presidents. And there are Cummins execs on the boards of Daimler Chrysler, General Motors, Toyota, and Honda America. Ford, the holdout, has not been doing very well.
So it isn't a question of who owns Cummins. It's a question of who Cummins owns, and who's next. Could be Ford. Could be DC. Could be both. Ford Viper, anyone? Mercedes Mustang with a 6.0L Shelby Diesel and a Holset twin turbo?
And some have claimed that the new Navistar/Ford 6.0L is Cummins' revenge for the Bosch VP44"

[cc1999]

I should add there were some people on that thread suporting and disputing the article. But just the same it made some since of how the notion that ford owned cummins could have got started in the first place. Don't shoot the mesenger just passing on an interesting article.

[AllAboutJeeps]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, the particulate trap shouldn't be creating so much back pressure that it causes a rise in exhaust gas temperatures (because it would hurt mileage and emission if it did that).

Second, the engines could use an electronic back down feature (for fuel delivery) if EGT's get out of control.

Third, they could use a water injection system and tout it to the public as a performance and emissions upgrade.

[/ QUOTE ]

If these problems are true, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they are, the problems are probably caused by the regeneration of the filter. In order to clean out a DPF, you have to heat the DPF to a certain temperature for a certain amount of time. There are currently only a couple of ways to do this that I am aware of and have experience with.
1. Electric heating element that raises DPF inlet temps high enough. Not aware of anyone going down this route.
2. Create heat at the cylinders themselves, which means the heat has to go through the turbo turbine. Alot of manufactures are going this route.
3. Add an additional fuel-burner downstream of the turbo before the DPF. Works independent of cylinder temps.

I would bet $1M that Navistar is using option 2, and that it could very well be melting turbos.

...danny

[jward]

Very interesting ! Thanks for sharing the article.

[rickeg]

I know a guy who knows a guy that used to work at Ford. He says that he heard from one of his very well connected friends over in Drive Train R&D that Ford is scrapping the whole 6.4 project and bring back an updated 7.3 to meet current emisions standards. Also, they are working with the guys over at Banks to get the turbo set up correct

this was a VERY firm source.

[Big K]

[ QUOTE ]
I know a guy who knows a guy that used to work at Ford. He says that he heard from one of his very well connected friends over in Drive Train R&D that Ford is scrapping the whole 6.4 project and bring back an updated 7.3 to meet current emisions standards. Also, they are working with the guys over at Banks to get the turbo set up correct

this was a VERY firm source.

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHA, that is funny!

The 6.4 is for real, the old 7.3 won't be back.

7.3 is OLD TECH, why go back to it? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]

[MrPlowJr_EZ_V]

Ok... To clarify a few things for the noobs.


The 6.4 has not been scrapped...but DELAYED.
The 7.3 is history IH doesen't produce them anymore. check their site internationaldelivers.com
Ford has is not part owner of cummins. I would know this. I'm not going to mention what I do for a living, but lets say I would know about it. I've done some research and This is no longer the case.

Ford will not work with banks to provide a turbo. PERIOD. Banks doesen't have near the capacity to provide a turbo for each and every ford diesel sold. I can garintee that any banks turbo would not have the longevity that the factory stocker has. made by honeywell/garrett

[03six0]

[ QUOTE ]
I know a guy who knows a guy that used to work at Ford. He says that he heard from one of his very well connected friends over in Drive Train R&D that Ford is scrapping the whole 6.4 project and bring back an updated 7.3 to meet current emisions standards. Also, they are working with the guys over at Banks to get the turbo set up correct

this was a VERY firm source.


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[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]

[svsoccerpoker]

My dad works at R&D in dearborn MI and has been working around these trucks for over a year now it's definitly a go. This time of the year they start crashing alot of everything ( cars& trucks ) and a little of the superduty's. They will be available in 07. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[frobozz]

[ QUOTE ]
My dad works at R&D in dearborn MI and has been working around these trucks for over a year now it's definitly a go. This time of the year they start crashing alot of everything ( cars& trucks ) and a little of the superduty's. They will be available in 08. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Well here's hoping they're available in '07, as planned!!

Duncan