How well do they idle?

[Rusty2785]

I dont own a new powerstroke but I do use them at work. I work for an ambulance company in daytona florida and we have F-350 with the 6.0 diesel in them and the trucks are great, we recently ordered 8 new 6.4 powerstrokes and I was wondering how they do if they have to idle for extended periods of time. We dont run out of stations here instead we set on street corners and move around for coverage, some of are trucks run 23 hours a day and spend most of the time idling. I am not sure how the new 6.4 does with the dpf and regen. mode. I have heard that if you late the trucks idle to much that it voids the warrranty?

[GrampyJim]

We haven't been told anything about voiding trucks with high idle times on them.... but.... Ford is getting pickier about "operating guidelines".

I can see where there is the chance that some warranty coverage may, in the future, be denied due to long idle times, AFAIK, this isn't yet company policy. However (and there is always a however)... if I am presented with a coking concern or or a DPF failure, I am required to isolate the cause of that concern... If I cover up the real cause with some BS claim, the owner will be back with a repeat concern and my repair will be called ineffective and possibly charged back. If I make the call that extended idling or some other avoidable condition was the cause, the warranty nazis can later decide that the repair will not be covered.

I can appreciate the need to station units away from any sort of engine house... but ambulance body builders are going to need to change with the times, too. If the chassis builders say "no extended idling", then it should be up to the ambulance builders to offer a package that will reduce the need for extended idling....

Perhaps an on board gen-set that will power battery chargers and a block heater might be in order?

There's no sense in calling a truck or any of it's parts a POS if we aren't going to follow the engineers advice.... In our area, we have a lot of drilling operations, logging operations and remote construction projects. Workers Compensation Board requires BLS units being stationed with (memory thing) 30 minutes drive. Stationed in extremely remote locations (one unit will cover several worksites) in sub-zero conditions... they have few options. These units are a real PITA for us techs because they are constantly having troubles... we can't fix them because it is the way that they are used that is "broken".

Talk about "Catch 22".

[dnewton3]

Rusty2785 - I wonder if you're going to have to start "driving" the truck, rather than sitting and letting it idle, at least part of the time.

It's an interesting dichotomy the EPA has created. They wanted cleaner exhaust emmisions, so they mandated levels which forced the manufacturers to develop and equip vehicles with components that are to "clean" the diesel exhaust. But when in a non-normal mode (i.e. idling), the very equipment designed to clean the exhaust will fall into dis-repair, neccessitating one of two things; excessive and lengthy regens, or having to drive the vehicle. Either one comsumes more fuel, thereby creating more exhaust that must be treated. It's a never-ending cycle of ill-concieved mannerisms.

I don't think that reducing pollutants is at all a bad thing, but as usual, the government only thought of how things would go right, and did not consider how things could go wrong. In all quality manufacturing organizations, there are process and product FMEA (failure mode effect analysis) criteria that are core to the success of any business or product. Funny that the government rarely, if ever, considers how things will gone wrong if some mandate, law, rule is not followed, or worse yet, is followed and then fails.

I work part time at my local Sheriff's Office as a Deputy. We sit and idle our cars often, but we also drive them, sometimes very hard, as you would expect as well. But the key is that are vehicles are always moving, then sitting, then moving, then sitting. They are able to burn off moisture and fuel contamination. And cars don't have the diesel regens cycles to worry about, either. So it's not a direct comparison.

GrampyJim has a good idea of alternative power generation for the equipment while in stand-by mode. But that will require major efforts on the part of the ambulance manufacturers. And, gee, they need more weight and equipment on these already loaded vehicles, right????

Bottom line, I suspect that any DPF equipped vehicle, be it 6.4 PSD, 6.7ISB, or 6.6LMM will have little success with excessive idling. You'll probably have to start actually driving around, to keep the passive regen's at a minimum. That will consume more fuel. That will drive up costs for the municipality or agency, which will in turn drive up taxes.

And so on ...

[rlchv70]

The engine will idle with no problems.

However, it just wastes fuel and oil change interval should be reduced because fuel dilution will be higher.

My question is why do they need to be idled for 23 hours a day? I can understand the need to periodically start to recharge the batteries, but that can be done for maybe 10 minutes every hour.

[Rusty2785]

Thanks for all the replies so quick. The reason that we have to have the trucks running all the time is because we have a crap load of equipment to keep going I like the idea of the generators and that is something that we will probably have to look into. The other reason that the trucks idle all the time is that during the summer it is hot down here and you have the a/c running. The ambulance company doesnt work off of tax dollars.

[dnewton3]

Rusty2785 - I stand corrected on the issue of tax dollars, but not the concept. Anthing that costs your company more money will be passed on to the end consumer. The cost of your average response will go up, maybe not overnight, but over time. It's not unlike freight/shipping charges that are going up due to fuel costs. If your vehicle maintenance costs go up, your company will not absorb them, but rather pass them on to the person getting the ride. And then that person in turn will either claim it on insurance, thereby driving up the cost of insurance, or will reneg on the bill in full, thereby driving up the overall average cost once again. You cannot escape the cost structure of business.

But my real point was that these new DPF systems don't like the stationary regen cycles as well as the active regen cycles. When you're driving around under a good load (and what ambulance is not a good load?), then the heat generated will require fewer and less lengthy regen cycles. OTOH, sitting and idling will increase the need for longer and more prominent cycles of regen. Either one will drive costs up. Further, sitting still and idling tends to plug up the DPF sooner, which means more maintenance costs. Those costs can be maintenance to the exhaust system, and/or more frequent oil/filter changes.

In other words, to my original reply, the EPA wanted to "clean" the air, but now they have created a situation where we're burning more fuel, whether driving or sitting still, and also having to incur increased maintenance costs and more dependency on oil, be it fuel burned or engine oil changed.

[Rusty2785]

Originally Posted by dnewton3

Rusty2785 - I stand corrected on the issue of tax dollars, but not the concept. Anthing that costs your company more money will be passed on to the end consumer. The cost of your average response will go up, maybe not overnight, but over time. It's not unlike freight/shipping charges that are going up due to fuel costs. If your vehicle maintenance costs go up, your company will not absorb them, but rather pass them on to the person getting the ride. And then that person in turn will either claim it on insurance, thereby driving up the cost of insurance, or will reneg on the bill in full, thereby driving up the overall average cost once again. You cannot escape the cost structure of business..

I understand what you are saying with the cost of things going up and that will probably be the downfall of the ambulance company here. There have been talks for many years of when things will go south and the county fire department is just drooling over this time. We will find out soon if they are going to take over or leave us alone for another year.

[Fordiesel69]

In my opinion all the specialty vehicles like ambulances for example should be exempt from all the emissions crap. For the future of diesels, I hope it is just like the old 80's gassers. 10 million vacuume controlled devices that break, then come the 90's and no more vacuume stuff to break. Alot more reliable and meets emissions 10 times over with half as many parts. The diesel engineers will have to get it right at some point.

[Hydro]

Good thing your not buying Chebbies or Dodges because they don't regen at idle and you'd go into limp mode and completely clog your DPF's. I wonder what Ford would have to say about this situation. Is it possible for the company owner to call them and explain he's buying that many vehicles and is concerned about high idle times.

[Rusty2785]

The thing is the people that bought these trucks dont know the first thing about the new diesels.

[Airforce]

Rusty must take you to task, sorry. For my needs. Drive long distances diesels are or were the way to go(High gearing ) and carry some good weight , not able to have alot of the options that are good for my case. Some of the time I can't get to where I need to in one day. So I have and option 1. Hotel/Motel maybe $100 to 200.00 for 6 hrs sleep. Not likely and they aren't where I need them so sleeping in the truck is the only alternitive. At the - **C temps I can't sleep with the truck off. And yes I have changed a small generator to run off of a 20 L fuel can. But that won't keep the cab warm. Yes years ago I fell asleep and took an inch off of a hydro pole. They need to have trucks that are user friendly for what I see so far is that they need to have shutters and be able to increase the cylinder temps when in the idle mode ( less air 2500*F to 3000*F) other things that will keep the heat in on the engine. Just need more engineering to fix the problems that were created by ilconceived ideas. It is - 30*C outside now.

[Max2006]

Ambulance prep package (47A) for the F350/450/550 includes STATIONARY elevated idle control (SEIC) integrated into the engine control module.

[85351ho]

why not get the 6.8 v-10?