6.4L Power Stroke Engine and DrivetrainDiscussion of the 6.4L Power Stroke diesel engine and drivetrain in the 2008-Up Super Duty trucks. No gas engine discussion allowed except on transmissions and drivetrain that pertain to all models. Please confine discussion of topics in this forum to those items that are specific to the 6.4L Power Stroke engine.
I have been reading up on them since it was announced that the 6.4 will be equipped with them. If I am not mistaken this will be the first consumer diesel in America to be equipped with these type injectors. The electrical theory on which these injectors work seems to be very complex. I don't understand about the actuators and the "crystals". It seems that several companies including Siemens already has piezo injectors that can inject at more than 400 bar over what the 6.4 is going to do. Anyone know about the dependability and durability of these injectors? Are they very expensive and labor intensive to replace. Other than all of the pollution and electrical gizmo's that are going to be put on the 6.4, the injectors seem at least with the limited information available to be the major change over the 6.0.
If I understand right, Europe has had the Pizos for a long time. So have the Epson/Cannon/HP printers. But I dont think they will be interchangeble. But you may be able to make your exhaust any color you want... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
I would be glad to be using something that has already been used in Europe for years and not have the problems that the Ds have been having with injectors for the last few years in GM, Ford, or Dodges.
Peace
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HPCR (High Pressure Common Rail) uses a single pump to kick the fuel pressure up to injection pressure, often in the range of 1400-1800 bar (1 bar is about 14.5 psi). This pressurized fuel in a common fuel rail with each injector fed from this rail -- similar to EFI setups on gassers, but with much higher operating pressure.
The injectors, then, are basically simple metering valves. All they have to do is open the correct amount at the correct time as commanded by the ECU and close again when commanded. There's low mass, low inertia in the injector itself, so multiple injection events per combustion cycle are possible. This is how the '03+ Cummins and '02+ Duramax were able to do pilot injection and get the quiet idle/low-load operation.
In addition to pilot injection for noise control, HPCR affords better control over spray pattern and amounts, and the multiple-events-per-cycle function also helps with both power production and emissions.
In the transition from the HEUI system used in the 7.3L and 6.0L to the HPCR setup in the 6.4L, the engine loses: high-pressure oil pump, its feed reservoir, the HP oil galleys in the heads, and relatively large, complex injector assemblies. It gains: a single high-pressure fuel pump, a pair of fuel rails (one per bank), and smaller, simpler injectors.
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AutoJim
Former Cooling Guy
'99.5 F350 Lariat CC SRW 4x2, 7.3L 4R100
'99 Mustang Cobra, SCCA Solo2 E Street Prepared
'97 Dodge Neon, SCCA ITA/STU/EP Club Racing
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Don't tell my cattle I got leather seats!
2006 F450 CC Hauler bed 4x2 6.0 L Pstroke/Torqshift, Lariat, 4.30 r/a.
2006 F350 Lariat CC Dually 4X2, 6.0 TQShift 4.10 LS, STOCK.
36 feet on the floor Elite/Outlaw LQ horse trailer.
36 foot double tandem axle flatbed trailer.
36 foot Sooner 6 horse large dressing/ mid tack.
15 horses with good balance from being hauled behind a P'stroke.
HPCR (High Pressure Common Rail) uses a single pump to kick the fuel pressure up to injection pressure, often in the range of 1400-1800 bar (1 bar is about 14.5 psi). This pressurized fuel in a common fuel rail with each injector fed from this rail -- similar to EFI setups on gassers, but with much higher operating pressure.
The injectors, then, are basically simple metering valves. All they have to do is open the correct amount at the correct time as commanded by the ECU and close again when commanded. There's low mass, low inertia in the injector itself, so multiple injection events per combustion cycle are possible. This is how the '03+ Cummins and '02+ Duramax were able to do pilot injection and get the quiet idle/low-load operation.
In addition to pilot injection for noise control, HPCR affords better control over spray pattern and amounts, and the multiple-events-per-cycle function also helps with both power production and emissions.
In the transition from the HEUI system used in the 7.3L and 6.0L to the HPCR setup in the 6.4L, the engine loses: high-pressure oil pump, its feed reservoir, the HP oil galleys in the heads, and relatively large, complex injector assemblies. It gains: a single high-pressure fuel pump, a pair of fuel rails (one per bank), and smaller, simpler injectors.
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This "sounds" like good news, I think. Simplifying the undependable injector systems of the 6.0 is progress. Also sounds like it would be easier to repair, but I bet this set up is quite expensive. I can't wait to hear one run, bet it doesn't even sound like a diesel. Too bad, but if it runs like one and is dependable, that is what I am after. I am going to wait on the Toyota offering and compare the 6.4 to the Toyota diesel when it arrives, in the mean time it will give Ford some time to work out the hopefully few "bugs" in the new engine, I am really pulling for Ford to get off the ground right with this one.
You will have a lift pump providing the fuel to the injector pump similar to the dmaxes, and cummins. I would expect the injection pump to be under the hood.
Justin
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2004 F150 Heritage. No diesel Right now
It will still have a fuel pump in the tank to transfer the fuel from the tank to the engines HP fuel pump. No one said that they were putting the HP fuel pump in the fuel tank.
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Currently Owned Vechiles
2005 Ford F-250 XLT CC, LB, 6.0, Auto, 4x4
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The electrical theory on which these injectors work seems to be very complex. I don't understand about the actuators and the "crystals".
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Piezo electric devices are an old technology that is really pretty cool. The piezo crystal changes shape in the presence of a electric current - the amount of deflection in the crystal is proportional to the voltage. They respond very quickly, and they are extremely strong - two things that are required in this application. The cool thing about piezo electric crystals is that it works both ways. If you deflect the crystal, it generates an electric current. Take a look at your "snap" cigarette lighters, or the spark device on your gas grill or gas fireplace. When you push the button, a spring loaded "hammer" strikes a piezo crystal, deflects it, and generates a voltage that is used to make a spark. Even the speaker on your alarm clock (the really cheap ones) is usually a little pancake-looking piezo electric crystal.
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Are they very expensive and labor intensive to replace. Other than all of the pollution and electrical gizmo's that are going to be put on the 6.4, the injectors seem at least with the limited information available to be the major change over the 6.0.
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We won't know about the cost or the labor to replace these injectors until the training classes in November..
To elaborate on what Greg has said. Piezo material have been around a long time. The Curie's were part of the discovery of piezo electric theory. The Navy 50+ years ago did much development work with piezo crystal materials for sonar applications. Most of the materials available today that can be used in these injectors was pioneered by Navy research. There are 2 basic types of piezo materials. Natural grown crystals, quartz being the most popular. Then there are the powdered materials where a ceramic power made up of lead zirconium titanate (one of many formations) is pressed then sintered at high temperatures into a ceramic element. The only real enemy of a piezo element is temperature. This can be as low as 200C and as high as 1100C depending on the material. Once a piezo material is overheated it looses is ability to respond mechanically to electrical excitation. Piezo elements have been used for years in automotive knock sensors.
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1996 F-250 XLT PSD E4OD CC SB haulin my daughters horses Sunni Boy and Smokey. 85 M-B 300D 300K and climbing. 5 Farmall Tractors, F-12, 2 H's, Cub LoBoy 154, 656 Diesel.
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It will still have a fuel pump in the tank to transfer the fuel from the tank to the engines HP fuel pump. No one said that they were putting the HP fuel pump in the fuel tank.
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Hmmm,
I didn't see a fuel pump in the tank on my 03 6.0. I thought it was in the HFCM on the frame rail.
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Feb 03 6.0 Silver F-250 SD SC XLT long box, 6-spd 3.73ls, Fx4, Stock, Spray-in liner, Contico box.HARPOONED.
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