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99 & up 7.3L Power Stroke Engine and Drivetrain FAQ Frequently asked questions in the 99 & up 7.3L Power Stroke Engine and Drivetrain forum.

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Old 03-24-2008, 07:46 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Exclamation Help Massive Oil Leak at Turbo Pedestal

I just installed a CCV mod and now there is massive oil coming out of the turbo pedestal. There'd been an oil build up in the intake valley for a while now and the pedestal has oil gunk dried on it, so I think it's just coincidence that it started really gushing now. I unplugged the CCV mod hose by the air intake and it was blowing freely, so I really don't think that's the issue. The only other thing I did was clean and re-tighten the intercooler pipes and boots while installing the CCV mod. We were backing out of the driveway after the CCV mod and intercooler pipe cleaning when my wife noticed a huge pool of oil where the truck was parked at, so I didn't drive the truck at all after the CCV mod / intercooler pipe cleaning.

I spent a long time laying on the motor today with a extendable mechanics mirror and a flashlight, then I ran it and waited for the oil to start leaking badly. It doesn't come out until the truck starts to warm up, like about 3-5 minutes, then it really comes out. The previous owner took the EBVP off when he installed a new turbo b/c it stuck closed and burnt the original turbo up. So, there's a hole with a bolt stud coming out of it about halfway up on the right side of the pedestal that can be seen on the right (passenger side) below the exhaust side of the turbo. At first I thought the oil may be running off the top of the pedestal, but I'm almost 100% sure it's actually coming out of that hole. Could someone PLEASE give me some guidance on this? I don't know what could be causing this. If the O-rings were bad wouldn't the oil just leak from the top or bottom and not come out a hole in the middle of the pedestal?

I just found the fantastic attached picture courtesy of a PSD guy who gos by the name VitalIdle. The oil is coming out of the housing where the yellow circle is on the EBPV pedestal.
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Help Massive Oil Leak at Turbo Pedestal-turbopedestal7.3l.jpg  
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Old 03-24-2008, 09:56 PM   #2 (permalink)
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There's a couple of things you can do to fix it. Either way you'll have to remove the pedestal (and replace the o-rings you thought were leaking.)

You can rebuild the EPBV actuator with a seal kit (around $100)

or you can tear the pedestal apart and plug the ports that allow oil into and out of the piston housing for the EBPV actuator. Don't have any specific instructions on how to do that, but I recall someone posting about it with photos. Try a search for EBP Delete.
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Old 03-25-2008, 01:02 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Before tearing anything apart yet, you might want to pinpoint with certainty where exactly the leak is coming from.

To do that, consider pouring some flourescent tracer dye in the crankcase, and have your wife start it up again (with a large, high sided oil drip pan underneath, since you know it will leak a lot) while you carefully inspect the top of the engine (with the plastic "powerstroke" site shield removed).

You'll need a special, very expensive tracer light if you make this inspection during the day time. So don't bother doing it during the day. Do it at night, and then you can get by with a cheap black light, found in pet stores for lizard cages, or found at Home Depot in 4 foot flouresent tube lenghts. If necessary, go ahead and buy a $9.99 four foot flouresecent fixture to put the black light tube in, it is still cheaper than the several hundred dollars the automotive specialty tool truck will charge you for the inspection light made for this purpose.

At night, your makeshift halloween refuge blacklight is not competing with the sunlight, and the green dye will bubble out of the leak source like neon sign, saying "look here, I'm over here." Even if the engine is already covered in oil, and the valley is already swimming in oil, the oil outside the engine is not yet dyed. But the oil inside the engine is. And where the oil inside the engine is gushing forth to get outside, that will be the location of the strongest concentration of dye that ends up outside the engine. Voila, now you'll know if the leak is coming from the pedestal, the CHRA, the HPOP line o-rings, or whereever it might be.

This is a fairly fool proof way of precise leak location detection, and it happens to be the method that Ford required dealer service departments to follow first when doing warranty diagnosis and repair. Only the dealers could do it during the day with the high dollar light.
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Old 03-27-2008, 12:24 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Hope you do not mind me tagging along on this topic?
1. Where does one find the florescent trace dye?
2. Are turbo pedestal o-rings prone to failure?
I had them replaced back in 2002 and I have quite a bit of oil loss. The last oil change which was this past weekend I noticed a lot of oil on the bottom rear of the engine; all over the starter, fly wheel shroud, etc. No puddle forms on the ground, just an oil slick on the bottom of the engine and anywhere from 2 - 3 quarts low after 5000+ miles.
I know one source of the leak is my own fault. I believe I did not properly mount the breather box (if I am correct with it's name) on the drivers side valve cover. The o-rings there are not aligned correctly.
3. Could this be a source of an or the oil leak described above?

Thanks in advance
Rick
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Old 03-27-2008, 12:58 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Second hit on a 2 second, 2 term Google search of "tracer dye" compatible with "diesel oil" turns up a post from none other than this very forum, found in the archives, that speaks to both your questions about the O-Rings and the tracer dye:

TheDieselStop.Com Forums: oil in the valley

Here is the text copied and pasted, in case the archive links break:


Robyn Member # 5486 Reged: 02/20/00 Posts: 1433
Re: oil in the valley
#2218473 - 01/21/05 03:41 PM
I just posted this in a related thread, but a couple years from now, these threads will be no where near close to each other or related, and future folks searching for answers may find this thread over the other. Besides, I can't retierate the points below enough:

One fitting that hasn't been mentioned yet is the end plug on the back of the HPOP. This is NOT the large cap cover retained with a tension ring (although that can LOOK like it is leaking).

It is the lone bolt head (serviced by an 18mm wrench size) that uses the exact same little O-rings that the two discharge fittings utilize.

This little end plug can vibrate loose. (Ask me how I know.) The end result appears as if the rear main seal has let go entirely, and the engine will pave the street with oil (and coat the entire bottom of the truck) at a loss rate of one gallon per 15 miles driven. And that is with this plug only less than 1/4 turn loose.

The leakage of this plug is nearly impossible to determine visually without being on top of the motor. Even then, the oil streams down invisibly, and the only indication given that a problem exists is a full valley of oil, the same valley that drains down the back of the block giving the illusion of a rear engine leak.

In my case, all of the oil rail fittings and plugs on the head (and on the HPOP) were bone dry. Yes, the Orange and Blue Charge Air Cooler hoses weep a tiny bit, but that little bit of seepage in no way accounted for the "Exxon Valdez" style puddles that I spent many more dollars cleaning up to be environmentally responsible than I spent on fixing the cause.

Speaking of fixing the cause, Ford has noted this problem, and has issued the following TSB's guiding dealer network service technicians to the fix (since more than a few rear main seals were misdiagnosed and replaced needlessly).

From Most Recent to Last:

TSB 04-04-04
TSB 03-21-50
TSB 03-17-01

I don't have the full text to these TSB's handy, but someone else here might post the text for all to read.

The Ford part number for the kit that contains three O-rings along with a small capsule of LocTite 680 Sealant is 2C3Z-9G804-AA.

Note that this kit is also available from International. The International part number for the Instruction Sheet is 1171794R2.

You will also need a special tool to release the HPOP line fittings, unless you are lucky (as I was) and find that the line fittings are not leaking, only the end plug. Further on in this post, I will mention the CRITICAL first step that I took in making this determination, and what I believe to be the most ACCURATE method of locating and verifying leaks. But briefly back to those lines... if yours are in fact leaking, or for those that throw new parts at things before definitive diagnosis, the recommended tools are:

Rotunda Essential Tool #303-625
or
High Pressure Hose #6 quick release tool ZTSE4449
or
A $10. equivalent available at a local speed shop or decent parts house.

Now, back to the soapbox: before assuming that these HPOP fittings are the problem, STEP NUMBER ONE in diagnosing any engine leak nowadays involves the use of fluid compatible flourescent dyes that are responsive to UV/Blue or Black Light. Anything else is just a blindman's guess. Ford recommends and, in fact, now requires this step to be taken before paying on warranty work. But don't do it because "Ford says so." Do it because it makes brilliant sense. (And I mean "brilliant" literally, especially if you do the test at night!)

The Ford dealer sells the dye that is specifically compatible with diesel engine oil, but that dye may or may not have been obtained through Ford's distribution channels. Dealers buy those kinds of parts from other places as well, to save money. So you may get some all purpose stuff for $8.50 an ounce, and I'm the type that want's to know what I'm getting.

The one flouresecent dye that I am certain of that is A) compatible with diesel engine oil, and B) approved by Ford Motor Company (since 1994), is made by a division of Spectronics Corporation, the company that claims to have invented this diagnostic process, and that holds the most patents and sells the most products related to it.

Being approved by Ford is only an issue if your 5yr/100K mile warranty is still in effect, as the dye will stay in the motor until the oil is changed, and there is no legitmate need to change the oil after leak diagnosis and repair because after all, you just put in X amount of gallons to make up for the oil that was lost on the road, and to then make up for draining the HPOP to pull the plug and/or fittings to replace the seals. The dye is designed to remain in the crankcase, and if fact, you would want it to in order to monitor the success of your repair.

The company division is called Tracer Products, and the (Ford approved) product specifically formulated for diesel engines is their Dye-Lite TP3100. It comes in various quantities and sizes, so I recommend just picking up smallest case of six 1-oz bottles. The standard mixing ratio is 1 ounce per gallon of oil, so 3 oz will do nicely, leaving another batch for the future, or for a friend. Expect to pay around $25.00.

Now you ask, what about the UV light? TracerLine does sell a variety of UV/Lights, but you don't necessarily need to buy these (although they can be more convenient). I used several blacklights I had left over from a haunted house I constructed for the neighborhood kids, and they worked excellently. Blacklight flourescent bulbs and fixtures can be easily and inexpensively obtained at fish stores, and even Home Depot. You can buy the bulbs and use your existing fixtures if you like.

Some professional diagnostic UV lights (from Snap-On and Tracer) have the advantage of higher intensity for a smaller size, but remember that most technician work is done during the day time, so the UV light must compete with the ambient light. Since most DIY/ shadetree work is done in the evening or on the weekend, you have the advantage of working in darkness, which enhances the visibility of the flouresecence of the tracer dye.

I cannot reiterate enough (in fact, I'll post this in the related thread too) the importance of using tracer dye to locate the EXACT source of the leak, in order to fix just that problem... without unneccesarily futzing around with anything else that ain't broke. The dye will reveal that what looks like a leak to the naked eye isn't really the source. The key in seeing the differentiation is in noting the intensity of the UV reflectance.

A poster in the archives once complained of trying the dye, and claimed all he saw was flourescence everywhere. Yes, you will see that, but that is helpful too. You will know that the river of flourescence is new oil that just emerged from the engine, not residual oil left over in the valley. In fact, one secret to this is that you do NOT want to pre-clean the engine prior to diagnosing with the dye, because the residual oil remaining in the valley helps to dilute the intensity of the new flourescent tinted oil leaking from the source. In this manner, the differentiation can be observed.

I hope this helps you or someone else, as I would have wished for this amount of detail condensed into one post on a website like this when I experiened my oil leak. I had to slug it out on my own.



manstihl member Member # 18959 Reged: 01/11/02 Posts: 27
Re: oil in the valley
#2222684 - 01/23/05 11:23 PM
What Roybn said here about using the "Dye-Lite" product or something similar to detect oil leaks is right on the money. One thing though, if you are talking a Powerstroke watch the amount of dye used. My dealer used this product to attempt to detect an oil leak in my Powerstroke motor, but he had trouble detecting the leak as he only put 1 one ounce bottle in the crankcase, which is one-third the recommended amount. No wonder they had trouble detecting the leak. As I understand it a Powerstroke motor should have minimum 3 ounces of the product used (three one ounce bottles).
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Old 03-28-2008, 08:05 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Can things like pedestal o-rings be replaced and or HPOP be serviced by a novice like myself?

What would be needed to:
Replace pedistal o-rings
Service HPOP (o-rings, gaskets, etc)
Tools needed, etc.
I read that the HPOP end plug needs a 18mm wrench and there is another plug that takes a #30 torque head.

Using this forum in the past I was able to replace my glow plugs with no problem despite not having a clue before I posted my upcoming project. I did not know a ding-dang thing about needing a deep-well 10mm socket, a length of vacuum tubing, etc.
So with some insight, coffee, a few curse words here and there and a lot time, anything can be done.

Thanks
Rick
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Old 03-28-2008, 02:01 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rguido View Post
Can things like pedestal o-rings be replaced and or HPOP be serviced by a novice like myself?

What would be needed to:
Replace pedistal o-rings
Service HPOP (o-rings, gaskets, etc)
Tools needed, etc.
I read that the HPOP end plug needs a 18mm wrench and there is another plug that takes a #30 torque head.

Using this forum in the past I was able to replace my glow plugs with no problem despite not having a clue before I posted my upcoming project. I did not know a ding-dang thing about needing a deep-well 10mm socket, a length of vacuum tubing, etc.
So with some insight, coffee, a few curse words here and there and a lot time, anything can be done.

Thanks
Rick
The pedestal Orings are not too bad. If you changed out the glow plugs then you shouldn't have a problem pulling the turbo and the turbo pedestal. The Orings on the HPOP lines are not too bad. If you pull some of the fittings off (that go into the heads) you will see the Orings. You need to make sure you get the ones from FORD... Again if you did the glow plugs these won't be too difficult...
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Old 03-28-2008, 11:59 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Why do I have to get the ones from Ford? Why can't I get the ones from International?
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:45 PM   #9 (permalink)
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tsb for the ebpv acuator. Had my pedestal replaced recently. the dealer told me is wasn't an issue, 5 months later still leaking. Got them to cover it, they completely replaced the whole pedestal and confirmed it was BOTH the o-rings and the actuator orings leaking.
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:53 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYB View Post
Before tearing anything apart yet, you might want to pinpoint with certainty where exactly the leak is coming from.

To do that, consider pouring some flourescent tracer dye in the crankcase, and have your wife start it up again (with a large, high sided oil drip pan underneath, since you know it will leak a lot) while you carefully inspect the top of the engine (with the plastic "powerstroke" site shield removed).

You'll need a special, very expensive tracer light if you make this inspection during the day time. So don't bother doing it during the day. Do it at night, and then you can get by with a cheap black light, found in pet stores for lizard cages, or found at Home Depot in 4 foot flouresent tube lenghts. If necessary, go ahead and buy a $9.99 four foot flouresecent fixture to put the black light tube in, it is still cheaper than the several hundred dollars the automotive specialty tool truck will charge you for the inspection light made for this purpose.

At night, your makeshift halloween refuge blacklight is not competing with the sunlight, and the green dye will bubble out of the leak source like neon sign, saying "look here, I'm over here." Even if the engine is already covered in oil, and the valley is already swimming in oil, the oil outside the engine is not yet dyed. But the oil inside the engine is. And where the oil inside the engine is gushing forth to get outside, that will be the location of the strongest concentration of dye that ends up outside the engine. Voila, now you'll know if the leak is coming from the pedestal, the CHRA, the HPOP line o-rings, or whereever it might be.

This is a fairly fool proof way of precise leak location detection, and it happens to be the method that Ford required dealer service departments to follow first when doing warranty diagnosis and repair. Only the dealers could do it during the day with the high dollar light.
I just use my UV dye and light that I use to service vehicle A/C systems. The dye is inexpensive and you can get it in a kit, with the light. Some of the kits even have instructions for use as an oil leak or coolant leak detector. The complete kits are around 40-50 dollars and invaluable for use detecting leaks of any kind.
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